new scouts and summer camp or alternatives?

[Lisabob]

Our council does not run a traditional boy scout summer camp so troops in our area have to go out of council every year. Consequently our troop has developed a tradition of going to a nearby OOC camp one year and then going out of state for camp in opposite years. Within a certain realm of possibility (Alaska is out) our scouts choose the camp. This year we are going to what looks like a really excellent camp in NC (Camp Bonner/Pamlico Sea Base), half way across the country from us, and practically all of our current scouts have signed up to attend. Although we've never been there, I've been impressed so far with how well organized they are, and I've only gotten good reviews (except for the black flies issue!) from others who have attended.

 

 

We expect to get between 7-10 new scout cross-overs. Camp Bonner runs what looks like a pretty solid first year program. We typically have a pretty high boy:leader ratio (probably will be along hte lines of 3:1 this summer) and of course new parents are welcome to attend too, as registered leaders. But it is a 10 day trip and several of these parents have already expressed concern about sending their boys so far away on their first summer camp trip (most of these boys have never been away from home longer than a weekend). They've said they would feel better if they were able to attend too, but they can't be gone for so long from home/other children, work, etc.. Also, while we do our best to contain costs, it is about $100 more expensive to go across country than to stay in state (gas, food, camping, sight seeing). We do offer a spring fundraiser but it is still an expensive trip - worth it, but expensive. So several of these new parents are voicing a lot of reluctance about sending their boys with us.

 

Of course they may change their minds over the next few months! But do you have suggestions about how to convince reluctant parents that this is a good idea?

 

Alternately, for the first time this summer, our council will run what is being billed as a T-2-1 event at one of our council camp properties about an hour from where we live. This is supposed to be a 4 night,3 day sleepover event that focuses on 1st cl/1st year skills. No merit badges will be offered and it isn't really supposed to be a replacement to summer camp, just a supplement. Parents are welcome but not required to attend with their boy. Meals are dining-hall style. It is unclear whether additional troop leaders are expected/required. Camp staff if provided by council. Cost is about a third of what it will be for us to go to Camp Bonner this year.

 

Does anybody have experience with this sort of program? If you had boys who absolutely were not going to summer camp with you, would you encourage them to at least do this? We all hear about how going to camp is one of the biggest indicators of who will stay and who will drop out of scouting in that first year.

 

Some objections I've already heard to the above - tell me how you feel about these - 1) it would effectively split the troop rather than encouraging unity and a sense of belonging; 2) it would be hard on troop leadership to attend both traditional camp and this camp; 3) no guarantee of quality - might be more like a "merit badge day" in terms of depth of coverage; 4) knowledge of this alternative might push parents who were undecided to NOT send their kids to camp with the troop and to do this program instead; and 5) without merit badges, it might not be "fun" for the boys.

 

I don't have an opinion yet and I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the above but as they've been quite vocally expressed by a few different people in our troop (and other local troops) I'm curious about how you might view all of this.

 

Thanks for your input!

 

 

[Eamonn]

This sounds like a really tough situation.

Even with a really good program (I don't mean to say that you offer anything but a really good program!!) Preparing the little lads who have just crossed over to go on a big trip, would be hard.

While I would think that a good leadership team would and could manage the problems that bringing such a young group away for such a long time and such a distance, I'm not sure if it's the best idea in the world.

Not just for the little Lads, but for the entire group.

I can't remember where you are based? But without dealing with the little Lads you already face dealing with some very tired Scouts (And Adults.)If you are not used to the heat that will be a factor. Hopefully everything will go well, but if anything goes wrong : vehicle breakdowns, illness or sickness you really will have your work cut out. Adding 7-10 Scouts who are new to the program and that maybe you don't know that well? Will make things really hard.

All you need is one little Lad to start feeling homesick and down in the dumps and it can and sometimes does bring the entire group down.

Much as I know I'd be very tempted to just take the little guys and see what happens, all the time hoping for the best!! I kinda think once I sat myself down and had a chat with myself I'd see it wasn't for the best.

While I was chatting with myself I'd look at my options.

Option One - Do nothing for these new Lads?

I don't like that one!

Option Two - Really look into the T-2-1 program.

Option Three - If we could do the T-2-1 program? Why couldn't we send this group to summer camp for a week?

I think with some prodding and a little push you could get a parent (or two) to sign up as a new leader and have him or her take them. You don't need a lot of skills to take a group to a council run summer camp. If you talk to the people who run the camp, I'm sure they would be willing to keep an eye on the group.

 

You seem to be doing better than we are!! Our Quarterdeck choose Pamlico Sea Base,but trying to get them to commit and pay the deposit really is like herding cats!!

Eamonn.

 

[Lisabob]

Hi Eamonn, thanks for your quick response. We are having a committee meeting tomorrow night where I expect/hope this topic will come up again. Last year it wasn't a problem because we were only a couple hours from home but the year before when the troop went to yellowstone (also the year my son joined) I know there were several first year parents, myself included, who said no way. (In our case we already had a family vacation planned for that week but I'd have said no anyway). In that case, the troop did absolutely nothing for the new scouts who weren't going with them, which irritated me no end. (we sent our son to a nearby camp as a provo scout but got no help or support from the troop for this - in fact several of the adults seemed quite annoyed by our choice and to this day don't understand it) So I understand where these new parents are coming from. On the other hand, the fact that we stretch and go on these long distance trips is one thing that draws people to our troop to start with! And the older boys never get "bored" of summer camp either.

 

A couple of quick follow-up questions

 

1) with your option 3 did you mean that we should consider doing our own T21 summer camp program? I'm not clear there.

 

2) If you were the SM, would you be ok with not accompanying the new scouts to the council T-2-1 program? It would be an awful lot to ask of the SM to do both summer camps. Most of our most-experienced leaders are going to Bonner/Pamlico but we have a fair number of well-trained, just less experienced folks, who aren't going to Bonner, who might be willing & able to do this instead. I guess I'm one of those.

 

About Pamlico - I hope your ship gets it together! I hear it fills up fairly quickly. It looks like a fantastic program. Are you/they doing the sailing school or the sea kayaking trek? We've got a few boys in each of these programs while our other guys are at Bonner. They're really looking forward to it.

[SR540Beaver]

Lisa,

 

Our SM never goes to summer camp for a full week. This last summer he and I split the cost of a week and I went the first half of the week and he went the second half. We have an ASM who serves as "summer camp SM" each year. The SM points boys to the acting SM if they come to him for anything at summer camp. This is the one campout of the year that he gets to relax and really enjoy himself. This allows our SM to use his vacation time to take crews on high adventure. It also allows ASM's a chance at sitting in the big chair. Not only should an SM be in charge of the program for the boys, he should be training his eventual replacment too.

 

WE had 20 new scouts this past year and every single one of them came to summer camp. I really believe that if we had gone cross country, only about half would have come to camp. While not impossible and depending on the boy, taking a trip across the country for a new scout is a huge deal and might keep them from going. So much is accomplished in the T21 type programs and I think studies have shown that boys who go to summer camp their first year tend to stay in scouting longer.

 

I'd really look at finding someone to take them to camp closer to home.

[Eamonn]

I have never heard of a T-2-1?

I know what a summer camp is!!

If I was unable to twist the arms of a few "Willing adults" maybe the T-2-1 might be an easy sale. (Less Time.)

As long as you feel that the adults are not brain dead and have some training having them accompany and stay with the Scouts, ought not be a big deal!!

I like the idea that these little Lads get a full summer camp under there belt and get to participate in all the fun and joys that a summer camp holds.

But we the adults need to remember that we have to work to pay for our hobby and if we have obligations at home they have too come first.

 

As far as our reservation goes? I'm happy to leave it with the Scouts!! They know that the longer they wait, the bigger the chance is that they will be unable to get the dates that they want.

Part of the problem has been them waiting for dates of summer camps where they will be working this year -Part is -I think they are waiting to see if they get a better offer.

Eamonn.

[Ms. Eagle 515]

Lisa Bob,

My husband's Troop is discussing the option on staying local (or in your case T-2-1) with the scouts crossing over and then taking the older scouts OOC. Reasoning is based on previous years camping and there are some exceptions.

 

First years have a tendency for the homesick bug and the farther away they are it seems like the worse it is. When we stay local, they are familiar with the area and don't get so homesick. Arguement for your T-2-1(plus it's shorter time away). Plus it shows support of our Council program and camp and from what I've been reading elsewhere we need to count or blessings we have one.

 

If any of our older scouts want to attend our in council summer camp with the new guys to work on additional merit badges, which believe me there are some who will and there are some parents who will want to get rid of their scouts but that's another thread all together, they are more than welcome and thus the newer boys don't get alienated. I don't know how your council would feel about older scouts as role models during this T-2-1 but if they're willing, you might have some older boys willing to assist.

 

Since our OOC offering would be held after the new scout summer camp experience, if they are up to it, the new scouts having proven to themselves they can survive can come along as well with the older boys. The first experience helps booster their confidence in staying away from home and surviving. Admittedly though, we don't have the fortune of leadership ratios as yourself so it would seem to me that with more adults there, you have a bigger parent scout ratio which might cut back on the homesick thing all together.

 

Do you have any registered leaders who work in the school system and are off for the summer? This is the only way we are able to consider the two summer camp options because we have such adults. If so, maybe they would be willing to take the new boys to T-2-1 or some other closer OOC option, and if all goes well and the parents see the boys survive, they'll allow the boys to participate in the further away summer camp and the boys will have a little experience under their belt.

 

All this hinges though on if the T-2-1 falls before the Summer Camp trip and if the Final location will take last minute signups as well as if your transportation could accomdate as well. If not this year, something to consider for next year.

 

Either way, the new guys need a summer experience. It's part of the program.

[SR540Beaver]

E,

 

T21 is just a new scout program like all the summer camps have. T=Tenderfoor, 2=2nd Class and 1=1st Class. Around here, they are often called Trail to Eagle or some such name. The difference in Lisa's case is that her council doesn't do summer camp and has opted this year to at least do a short new scout encampment. Summer camp lite.

[Eamonn]

Thanks Beav!! We call it a Pathfinder program.

I have to be careful what I say!!

This Pathfinder program is led by a super nice Lad from the Ship.

He is 18 and really does his best to work with this group. Sadly it seems that the group is just to large for him and his assistant to manage.

As we know holding the attention of a large group of young Lads this age can be very hard.

Talking with the Lad from the Ship he says some weeks are better than others -depending on the group.

Some SM's visit and see young Scouts not paying attention and goofing off and blame the staff.

I know that I run the risk of being an old stick in the mud. But ... (you knew it was coming!!)

I see learning the basics as being way too important to pass off to someone who might not do a good job. I see First Class as being the key to open new adventures and challenges.

I'm saddened to see Scouts who hold back from doing things or joining activities just because they don't have the skills.

If (and hopefully it's not?) this T-2-1 is some kind of fast track program ? I would want no part of it.

Get the little guys to camp. Let them have fun. Work on a couple of MB's. Come home with a few targets from the ranges, a basket or two.

This past weekend our flotilla held the Winter Training Weekend.

One Ship is offering Camp Able. It seems that a couple of Scouts from our Ship seem interested. I'm not saying very much (You know how hard that is for me!!)

The flyer reads:

Make Able Sea Scout rank in one week!

Course Description: You will be taught each of the mandatory and electives the Able Sea Scout rank. This course will include engines (safety and trouble shooting); Marlinspike seamanship (splicing); navigation (dead-reckoning and piloting); safety; radio telephone procedures; anchoring; and rules-of-the-road. You will be in a classroom situation on "odd" days but at sea during "even" days putting your newly acquired skills to use maneuvering sailing vessels ranging in size from 30 to 39 feet.

I might not be the brightest light on the Christmas Tree, but covering all that to any degree of proficiency in a week? I know when I was 15 or 16, years old I couldn't do it.

The sad thing is that some of the parents are now looking at me and wondering why their kid is still working on Ordinary having been in the Ship for a year.

If there is any way Lisa can arrange to get these little Lads away to camp for a week I think she should go for it.

I think I'd want to know all the details: Who was running, how big a staff, the program, before I'd sign up for this T-2-1.

Scouts who come home with a paper saying that they have passed all these requirements when they really don't know the stuff are unable to participate in the real adventures that Scouting can offer and that is a real shame.

Eamonn.

[Lisabob]

Yes, quality is one of the big concerns and I share it. Since this is a brand new program there's no track record here. The literature that's available so far indicates that nothing will be signed off at camp - but a list of "covered" activities will be provided so the participants can go back to their home troops and demonstrate their new-found skill & knowledge to their SM for his/her approval. I think we can head off some unrealistic expectations within the troop with some careful discussion though. (you're not coming home w/ 1st Cl after 3 days!)

 

OK so I'm compiling a list of things we need to know before deciding whether to promote this program. Thus far I have:

 

1) How many scouts/what's the enrollment cap?

2) Who is staffing and what's the expected staff:scout ratio?

3) Will scouts be broken into patrol-sized groups or taught in groups of 20-30 or what?

4) What will the daily schedule be?

5) What role does/can troop youth leadership play/are they welcome or expected to attend?

6) What role would attending parents play/how will you keep them from hovering too much over their kid during the day? (ie, how is this different from Webelos II resident camp?)

7) Why send them here rather than to a full-week first-year program at a nearby (though Out of Council) summer camp instead?

8) What specific T-2-1 skills will be included or excluded?

 

What other things would people add to this list?

[Lisabob]

Here's another take on the subject. If you have a group of new scouts who, for whatever reason, simply are not going to attend traditional BSA summer camp with the troop and your other options were as follows, what would you pick?

 

1) Do nothing and pick up with these new scouts again in September.

2) Encourage these scouts to attend the council-run T-2-1 program as outlined previously in this thread.

3) Run your own late summer tenderfoot/2nd Cl-focused long weekend campout.

4) Encourage these scouts to attend a BSA camp closer to home, without the troop, either as provos or as a very small troop contingent, effectively sending your troop to two separate BSA camps.

 

The first option strikes me as the worst of the bunch (there are downsides to the others too, I realize) but it is advocated - forcefully - by some in our troop as a way of getting the point across that we are a unified group and we don't go off on separate excursions for convenience sake - either go with the troop or don't go. I admit I'm struggling to understand this approach. Does anyone here subscribe to that view?

 

[Eamonn]

" by some in our troop as a way of getting the point across that we are a unified group and we don't go off on separate excursions for convenience sake - either go with the troop or don't go."

It might turn out that for some reason getting the little Lads away just isn't going to work. I know at this time the Ship couldn't be involved in two long events over the summer that needed adult leaders from the Ship. This is just a fact. I can't change it and I'm not going to beat myself up because of it.

Still the idea of not doing it (trying to get everyone to a long term summer event) to prove or make a point doesn't seem in keeping with serving the Scouts in the Troop.

The unified troop idea is a nice one, but can come back to bite you on the tail.

Back in the day (I'm sorry!!) My Father-in-law was the SM of a local Troop. He worked at the local rolling mill. At that time the biggest employer in the area. Most of the Scouts had Dads who also worked in the mill. Come summer the mill shut down for a week. This was when Jim (My Father-in-law, God rest him.) organized summer camp. It was also the time when many of the Scouts families went away on vacation. The Troop was never very large, I think it never went much above 12 or 15 Scouts. I kinda think the idea of organizing a separate event never ever crossed Jim's mind. His thinking was this is what we are doing take it or leave it!!

Sadly some Scouts who were in the Troop for a very long time never got to attend a long term summer camp. Just because everyone had their vacation at the same time.

This year a big problem the Ship has is that we have Scouts doing or hoping to do all sorts of things over the summer at different times and different places. Some are applying for SEAL -They are waiting till April to see if they have been accepted. Many are working at different Council Summer camps, a couple are working as Sea Dawgs at the camp we went to last summer, add graduations and graduation parties into the mix, then add band camp, football camp, family vacations and family commitments into the mix and there is no way I can come up with a date for a week long event that is a good fit for everyone.

A couple have friends in other Ships and will join them on the friends Ship for a long cruise, a couple are going away with the Boy Scout Troop they belong to.

Sure I'd love to see us all go to the same place at the same time (Hey we look great in our Sea Scout uniforms!) But I know this might never happen. Still if the Scouts are having fun and are participating in new adventures, facing new challenges and maybe I have done a little something to help facilitate this?

I think maybe I might be on the right track.

As the Troop ages, many of the older Scouts will want to toddle off and participate in some of the more adventurous activities and camps, when that happens the unified Troop idea goes out with the dish water.

We are here to serve the kids we have in our units, we might not be able to serve all of them all the time, but we can do our best. At times making points only gets in the way.

Eamonn.

[Ms. Eagle 515]

My vote is for 2 or 4. These boys need to experience scouting activities other than #3-Troop run and 1 really shouldn't be an option. If you went with 4 you might have some of the older scouts who would attend this as well whether or not they are going on the out of town outing, so then the boys would still be functioning as part of / with the Troop therfore nullifying the all or nothing nay sayers arguements in the Troop.

[Beavah]

Yah, Kudos to your troop for runnin' an interesting boy-led program, Lisa'bob.

 

I think we all have to remember how hard that is to do, eh? It takes a lot of scouter time and energy to pull off that sort of thing. A lot of youth leader time and energy, too. And parent time and energy.

 

It's hard to turn around and then ask 'em to do more for the minority who don't like what the group decided on.

 

I don't think your council T-2-1 week will do what these kids need, eh? They need to become part of a patrol. They need to get to know and trust the youth (and adult) leaders in their troop, and learn how their troop/patrol handles things like cookin' patrol meals, not how someone else does.

 

My advice is that the SM should discuss with the PLC what other troop events they'll have on the calendar for kids who can't make camp this year. It's pretty easy to get kids to think about that. And there's lots of ways to make it work if yeh don't get into other time conflicts.

 

Beyond that, it's the kids' and the SM's program, eh? This is not an area where a troop committee should be micromanaging.

 

[MollieDuke]

We actually had that trouble for the past two years with one of the groups I work with. Here's how they solved it and everyone loved it:

 

One troop was going out of state on a "big trip". Concern for the young pups was high. Second troop in area was going to traditional BSA summer camp. Older boys bored. Young pups excited.

 

Troop ONE opened their trip up to Troop TWOs older boys and adult leaders. Troop TWO, in exchange, took the young pups and adults to summer camp with them.

 

Everyone got something and got the long term camping experience, but it had to be a shared effort. They've done this for two years due to the activities involved, but I'm told each will do traditional summer camp this year, and have planned to attend the same week so they can be together as the boys are becoming really close.

 

Just a thought,

Mollie.

[Lisabob]

Thanks for the input everyone. We talked about this the other night and agreed that we would promote our own camp first and foremost, but that if there are new scouts who simply aren't going to go to camp with us then we'll encourage them to at least do this. The idea of attending another closer summer camp with our new scouts (or with another troop) got a cool reception mainly for logistical reasons.

 

Beavah I understand your view. This wasn't a matter of micromanaging the SM - this was more an open discussion (including the SM) of "what are the pro's and con's?"