Flag Fuss

[Eamonn]

Talking with the fellow who serves as our Camp Commissioner at Summer Camp last night.

Great Chap, in his early 70's,has been in Scouting for ever, just an all round nice guy.

He was telling me about a problem they ran into at camp.

I wasn't there, so everything is second hand.

A Troop from the Council who like most Troops in the Council attends summer camp year after year, same week, same site were up at camp for the week.

The SM is a nice chap. The Scouts in the Troop seem to have a lot of fun and are what I might call high spirited, but not out of hand. They seem to be very good at Scouting skills and the Troop does a good job of keeping older Scouts (16 &17 year olds) in the Troop.

They use one of the sites away from the maddening crowd and while participating in the activities of the camp also do their own thing.

It seems that one Scout decided that he would fly the Confederate Flag outside of his tent.

It also seems that the SM and the leadership of the Troop were OK with it.

While they were at camp the chap who was Camp Ranger, last year came up for a visit. He seen the Confederate Flag and complained to the Camp Commissioner, telling him that it had to come down.

The Camp Commissioner said that the Flag was on the Troops camp site and really wasn't his concern, it was up to the Troop Leadership to take care of what went on in their site.

Next thing is the Flag goes missing.

It seems that last years Ranger went to a group of Scouts and told them to remove the Flag.

When the Troop found out who had removed their Flag a fight broke out. Nothing really nasty, more pushing and shoving than anything else. It was broken up. The Flag was returned, but for the rest of the week there was tension between the two groups.

The Troop with the Flag as a rule pays their deposit for the next year before they leave camp. This year they didn't and the SM spoke to the Camp Commissioner telling him that they didn't think they would be back.

The Commissioner is as mad as a wet hen at last years Ranger and doesn't have a nice thing to say about him.

He was one of the participants of the Wood Badge course I directed, so he asked me what I would have done?

I said I would think about it.

I know that some people are offended by the Confederate Flag. However I think that the guy who was Ranger was just being a real right pain.

I also think if the Flag was causing him so much upset he ought to have gone to the Troop Leadership and expressed his concern, having Scouts do his dirty work is just plain wrong.

I'm unsure if the Camp should have asked the Troop not to fly the flag?

Eamonn.

[SemperParatus]

The old Camp Ranger was way out of bounds. He had no authority to do anything, the Camp Commissioner told him it wasn't a camp concern, and then he directs some boys to 'take care of it' for him. Sounds like a cowardly jerk to me. From your description, no one was having a problem until he showed up and took it upon himself to create a major problem. I don't blame the Troop for moving on to a different camp.

 

The Commissioner should make the SE aware of the actions of the Camp Ranger and the disruptions that he caused.

 

You folks out there sure do take your flags seriously. A story from a few years back, a neighboring troop of ours was at Heritage SR for summer camp. As a joke, they replaced a Steeler Flag that was hanging on a flagpole on the parade ground with a Ravens flag. As the story is told, one of the local SMs went totally ballistic, violently ripping the Ravens flag to shreds during morning colors and getting physical with some of the leaders of the visiting troop.

 

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[ASM59]

The Camp Ranger actually instructed the Scouts to break the Scout Oath/Law when he told them to take property that was not theirs to take. Bad choice, man I wish we could take things like this back after we've had the chance to think about it.

 

This year at summer camp we had a leader in our site that flew the "Jolly Roger" (skull & cross-bones). His tent was right off of one of the main trails, only about 12 feet of not very dense trees & under brush. You could clearly see this flag from the trail, and I thought for sure that he'd be told to take it down, but it was never brought up.

 

ASM59

[FScouter]

The Scout that chose to display the confederate flag made a poor choice. The ranger overreacted. The Scoutmaster made a poor choice to let it go. The commissioner also made a poor choice in ducking the issue.

 

I'd have asked the boy what statement he was making, and what reaction was he hoping to get by raising that flag. He sure got a reaction all right, a whole mess of angry people.

[Eamonn]

I have to admit to not really knowing how bad a "Sin" flying a Confederate Flag really is?

I'm sure that to some people it is like a red flag to a bull.

I don't think the Flag really upset the ex Camp Ranger, I think he was just being a pain and likes to be a pain.

The next question I suppose is how far should the "Camp" interfere with what a Troop does at camp in their site?

I hope we don't end up with 101 rules of what flags are and are not acceptable!!

I think I have in my Tupperware Box a CSP with a confederate flag on it! - Yes I know the Council changed the name and the patch.

SemperParatus

My good friend Jerry Crabtree, who I think is from your neck of the woods? Is a big Raven fan, needless to say I send him a lot of e-mails about the super-bowl champs.

I seem to remember that Heritage has some kind of special permission to fly an early American Flag. I can't remember which one?

Ed, do you know?

Eamonn.

 

[Dizzy ona cliff]

Sometimes there is a fine line between having fun and being offensive, and scouting is a good place to learn the difference. It is the responsibility of the adults to offer guidance since most boys don't have the experience to see the consequences of their actions, and often the learning process is more effective if they can come to the decision on there own rather than being told "no".

As a guide to the troops at summer camp it would not be out of line for the commissioner to let the SM know that someone found the flag offensive, which could be the equated to one of the scouts from the troop wearing a t-shirt in camp that said "people from Iowa are scum sucking pigs", and then give the troop they opportunity to decide what action was necessary.

Once the problem was identified, the SM would hopefully have a discussion with the scouts regarding why it could be considered offensive. I once had a scout that kept tying hangmans nooses in defiance of an ASM that told him "no", when I took the boy aside to ask him why he was being defiant, he said that he did not understand because it was just a knot. Once I reminded him of some examples of how some people would equate the knot with mob violence he had a better understanding why the ASM was so angry with him.

One time in camp the boys were sitting around the campfire telling yo mama jokes, but one new scout said that he was offended because he thought that it was disrespectful to mothers. Even though the other boys tried to explain to him that they were just jokes, he was still offended so the boys stopped telling the jokes.

In the Midwest I have never felt threatened by pirates, so a skull & crossbones flag just represents old stories of adventure, and I would see no reason to take it down. Someone from Georgia whose great great grandmother was abducted by pirates might feel differently.

However, we have got to have some good-natured fun, and so sports teams, like Texans, should always be open to ridicule. It is too bad that in addition to good guidance that we adults also often try to pass on our prejudices and intolerance on to our children. Maybe the boys should just make up their own flags.

 

[BrentAllen]

Eamonn,

There are a lot of Confederate flags - I assume you mean he was flying the Confederate Battle flag (square) or The Navy Jack (rectangular)? Or was it the Stars & Bars, which our current State flag is modeled after?

I see no problem with him flying either flag, or with the Jolly Roger. My guess is they were just having a little fun, showing they had a little Rebel or Pirate spirit in them.

 

This whole "I'm offended" thing can get out of hand, quickly.

You are offended by my flag. I'm offended that you are offended by my flag, and so on, and so on...

The Ranger did about the worst thing possible in that situation. Of all the choices he had, he chose the last on the list.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Eamonn, the "Conferderate Flag", also referred to as the Stars and Bars, as opposed to the Stars and Stripes can stand for many things. It was the Standard for the Confederate States of America during the Civil War/War between the States/War of Northern Aggression.

 

For some it represents the flag flown when their ancestors went into battle to protect a certain way of life, to some it represents opposition to the federal government mandating how every state should govern (slaves or no slaves, amoung other issues), to some it represents a general resistance to authority and to others it represents a culture that was inherently racist (slavery).

 

If in my family could trace itself back to the Civil War, (actually it can and I am related to Jeb Stuart)I could say I fly the Stars and Bars in honor of my ancestor who gave his life fighting for a cause in which he deeply beleived. Then others could say I fly the flag to honor a totally racist society. Both valid arguments which have no compromise. I see two issues here, one is the flying of the flag, then there is the issue of personal property. I may not appreciate the Stars and Bars, or I might, but either way I still don't have the right to mess with another's property or teach scouts that when you disagree with something, you just unilaterally remove the bone of contention.

 

My guess on this is the flag was flown to elicit a reaction. The less said the faster it would go away. but now its known the Stars and Bars are a flash point, it will fly again.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[CalicoPenn]

Even after an official US Flag is "retired", it is still considered a US Flag and may be flown at any time just like the current US Flag (provided it is done within the guidelines of the flag code, of course). Should you choose, you can fly the 13-star "Betsy Ross", you can fly the 48-star flag, you can fly the 21-star flag (etc. etc.) without special government permission. It was once, and always will be, considered an official US Flag (kind of like "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle").

 

The exception would be units of federal government - I'm sure a military post or national park would need to make sure they have the ok from the higher ups to fly a "retired" flag in place of the current flag - I know it's routine for National Historic Sites to fly the flag corresponding with their time period, but I'm also pretty sure the approvals are spelled out in their operating documents.

 

Heritage may have needed special permission from the BSA to do so (though unlikely), but not from anywhere else and if someone from the camp was saying otherwise, it could very well have been a misguided attempt to further mythologize the flying of a particular flag - we'd call it a form of urban legend. Tell a 12-year old lad you have "special permission" to fly the flag and it can be impressive. Tell that same story to a knowledgeable 17-year old and you'll get greeted by eye rolls signifying "what's with this clown".

 

As for the situation described, hopefully the Camp Commissioner consulted with the Camp Director. The former Camp Ranger should have been escorted off the property and told not to return - he became a disruptive element to the camp.

 

This could also have been a great learning lesson on a point of the Scout Law that is often explained as if there is no gray area - A Scout is Obedient. The Scouts that removed the flag could easily have said they were just being obedient to this adult leader therefore following the Scout Law. Great chance to explain that obedience should not be blind and it is as important to stop and think about questionable orders before carrying them out and refusing to do something that one has been ordered to do that is clearly unethical or illegal is also being obedient (to law and ethics).

 

CalicoPenn

[packsaddle]

Friendly, courteous, helpful, kind, cheerful...just a few things that come to mind here. As has been stated already, so many opportunities for good choices were missed in this case. And violence is never warranted for something like this.

 

My personal view is that the Confederate flag in every manifestation is the symbol of a failed effort to violently destroy our country by a bunch of traitors. Here in the South, mine is a minority opinion.

But the strongest image I have for it was driving past a Klan rally back in the '70s and seeing that flag displayed prominently as robed individuals stopped traffic trying to gain a larger membership. The Klan and similar groups adopted it as one of their symbols and the so-called 'heritage' group remained silent as if in approval.

Interestingly, this was first brought to my attention by Neil Boortz (whom I often enjoy) during his derision of the 'flaggots' as he calls them. Great fun, but as the Klan and similar groups waved the Confederate flag, the silence by more moderate persons was, as Neil argues, acquiescence to the adoption of the flag as a symbol of prejudice and hate. Those who view it in those terms are, in this respect, correct.

[Eamonn]

CalicoPenn,

While I see where you are coming from, when you talk about this being a opportunity to look at the Scout Law.

Sadly I think the adult who got the Scouts to steal the flag, knew what he was doing.

He knew it was wrong.

He was acting like a big kid.

The Scouts also knew what they were doing was wrong they did the dastardly deed as a lark more than out of anything.

I at times enjoy acting like a kid. I have been known to make a complete and utter fool of myself. Mainly at camp fires and when I'm trying to lift the spirits of our Scouts. Still I like to think that I know and the Scouts know that in the blink of an eye I can return to being an adult leader.

Scouting should and must be fun. But we as the adults should know when to say when, we need to remember at all times (Yes all times -Hard as that might be!!) That we are setting the example.

While stupid things like having Scouts look for smoke shifters and go on snipe hunts are bad enough, they are worse when a person who ought to know better encourages them or starts them.

Eamonn.

[BrentAllen]

packsaddle,

As you drove past that rally, did you, as a moderate person, get out and voice your disapproval of their message? If not, then I assume you were granting silent approval.

 

The KKK also carried and burned crosses. Does that mean crosses are now "a symbol of prejudice and hate"? They also carried the US flag.

 

Does it disturb you that the flag of your state is the Stars & Bars flag of the Confederacy, with the State Seal added on the canton?

 

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword..."

 

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

Robert E. Lee

[Trevorum]

Flags are symbols. Symbols have hidden meanings and can be loaded with emotion.

 

IMHO, the SM should poor judgement in allowing the flag in the first place. Would he have permitted a swastika by a scout who argued that the swastika was an early Scouting symbol? The SM owes the Camp Comissioner an apology.

 

The Ranger's actions showed even worse judgement. He essentially called an illegal "Code Red" (as did Col. Jessup). The Ranger owes the SM an apology.

[FireKat]

Confederate flag it can be a very touchy subject in The South. Kids now days use it as a symbol of rebellion from parents. An announcement that they are breaking free. Most dont see the problems/pain it can cause to some people. My oldest son started displaying it a few years ago and I found it in bad taste so I had a long talk with him. I told him my feelings and historical uses of it and he told me how the kids view it now. He had many friends of different races and many of them use the reb flag to. I told him that if he displayed it some people might wish to fight over it. He said he would be careful not to try to offend anyone with it. He did not flaunt it if someone had an objection.

I think that if someone has an objection to an item they should ask politely to remove to offending item and use that time as a chance to teach why it can be offensive.

 

IDIC

Viva la difference

To each their own

firekat

 

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, I can always depend on Brent. At the time I was returning home from work with a company truck and several other employees (Nuclear Industry), two of whom were black. Needless so say, we didn't stop to vent our views. I'm sure my black friends will be surprised to learn that they were in support of the Klan. But I suppose that's the way good ol' Neil would see it too.

 

As for Lee, we hashed that one over a while back, Trevorum and I. Just take a peek at that old thread for my response.