Dwindling scouts may have to sell a camp

[CNYScouter]

This is from our local paper today.

Last week I recieved a letter (so did all the registered leaders in the council) that outlined the strategy behing this.

 

There has been a great deal of discussion about this and has opened a big riff between the "urban" scouterss in the southern part of the council and the "rural" scouters in the northern part of the council.

 

http://www.syracuse.com/news/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/news-5/115485562510870.xml&coll=1&thispage=1

 

Dwindling scouts may have to sell a camp

 

DeWitt headquarters could also go. Reason: declining membership, rising deficits

 

Monday, August 21, 2006

By Tim Knauss

Staff writer

 

To a Boy Scout, selling off a 450-acre camp in the foothills of the Adirondack Mountains is "like selling a church," says Ray Sander, who leads the local council of the Boy Scouts of America. Such is the difficult prospect facing Sander's organization. With 25 percent fewer Boy Scouts than five years ago, and budget deficits of about $150,000 for each of the past two years, the Hiawatha Seaway Council, which oversees Boy Scouts from Syracuse to Massena, faces critical challenges. To meet those challenges, the council is proposing to sell one of its three Adirondack-area camps and its 9,000-square-foot headquarters building in DeWitt. The proposed consolidation - to be voted on by the board of directors in October after input from volunteer Scout leaders - would strengthen the council's finances and improve its ability to serve Scouts in the future, Sander said.

 

Although selling the 63-year-old Camp Portaferry in St. Lawrence County may stir up emotions, it would not diminish camping opportunities for local Scouts, Sander said. The council will keep the popular Sabattis Scout Reservation, a 1,600-acre preserve near Tupper Lake, and its 1,000-acre Camp Woodland in Constantia. Camp Portaferry is the smallest and least used of the three. "It's excess property, and financially we can't afford it," Sander said.

 

National trend

 

Dwindling membership is a fact of life for scouting organizations across the country, said Gregg Shields, speaking for the national Boy Scouts of America. With fewer Scouts, some local councils faced decisions about selling their camps. Some sell for economic reasons, Shields said; others sell because the camps have been gradually surrounded by suburban development and no longer offer a wilderness experience. In recent decades, many neighboring Boy Scout councils merged because of shrinking membership. The mergers often leave councils with more camps than they need, Shields said. A series of mergers between 1969 and 1999 created the Hiawatha Seaway Council, which serves Onondaga, Oswego, Jefferson, Lewis and St. Lawrence counties, from four predecessor organizations. The local scouting population no longer requires three camps, Sander said.

 

Why the decline in scouting?

 

Tristan Whitehouse, 18, of Skaneateles, recently became an Eagle Scout, the highest achievement for a Boy Scout. He said he can't imagine why more boys don't join the Scouts. Whitehouse, who's leaving soon for the University of Vermont, rose through the ranks with six close friends, all of whom started in first grade and became Eagle Scouts 11 years later. Those friendships, forged during hikes, skiing trips and other ventures, are precious, Whitehouse said. "For me, it was lasting friendships that I'm sure will last me the rest of my life," he said. But fewer and fewer boys participate in Scouts each year. Nationally, about 4.5 million youths are involved in Boy Scout programs, down 10 percent from five years ago, Shields said.

 

Occasional hostility

 

Scout leaders say they compete for boys' time with a growing array of sports, hobbies and other activities, many of which place less exacting demands on their time-starved parents. Then there's the image issue. Bill Goonan, 52, a Liverpool scout master, said the 16 members of his troop seem to enjoy canoeing, wall climbing and other activities of scouting, but he thinks they feel strong pressure from peers who view scouting as old-fashioned and uncool. "It's amazing the kids who do not want to wear their uniform shirts. They take it off as soon as the meeting's over," he said. "It's not cool. They don't tell their friends what they're doing." Goonan said Boy Scouts also encounter occasional hostility because of the organization's controversial policy of excluding openly gay members and leaders. Some school teachers won't distribute scouting materials, and passersby sometimes harangue Scouts during food drives and other events.

 

In 2002, Syracuse University stopped hosting the Hiawatha Seaway Council's annual "Boypower" fundraiser at the Carrier Dome because of the policy. "In many ways, scouting has a bull's-eye on its chest because of some of its ideals," he said. Many of today's scout leaders grew up during a time when scouting dominated the competition for boys' time and donors' dollars.

 

Eric Will, 59, of Pompey, joined Cub Scouts as a child and went on to become an Eagle Scout, as did his oldest son. But Will, a board member of the Hiawatha Seaway Council, said he's not sure whether his grandchildren will enter scouting because they have so many other activities available. "When I was a kid, I grew up in the scouting program - it was like an automatic," Will said. "As soon as you were old enough to join Cub Scouts, you joined." During the 1950s and 1960s, United Way typically provided a majority of the Boy Scouts' funding, Sander said. Today, the local council gets 3 percent of its $1.7 million budget from United Way, he said.

Similarly, large employers such as Agway and Carrier Corp. once donated as much as $70,000 each to the Boypower fundraising dinner, Will said. Those donations have dwindled as the big companies have left town, closed or cut back their giving, he said.

 

Girl Scouts, too

 

Boy Scouts aren't alone in their struggle to adapt to new circumstances. Service organizations of all sorts - from the Lions to the Elks - are fighting attrition. Competition from alternative activities also has taken a toll on Girl Scouts, said Sue Stewart, chief executive officer of the Girl Scout Council of Central New York. Local participation dropped from 7,600 Girl Scouts last year to 7,200 this year, Stewart said. A few years ago, there were 9,000 local Girl Scouts, she said. "This is a national trend both for girls and for boys," Stewart said. Local scout leaders say the trend is compounded here by the population erosion in Central New York. While many areas of the country are growing in population, Onondaga County's population is about 2.3 percent smaller now than it was 15 years ago, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates. Despite those challenges, the local Boy Scout organization is committed to maintaining its broad array of programs for young people, Sander said.

 

In addition to traditional scouting, there are educational and career-oriented programs such as a recent "engineering camp" the council hosted in conjunction with several local companies. The council also has Venturer programs for boys and girls ages 14 to 20. To fight the trend of declining membership, the Hiawatha Seaway Council this fall will open Cub Scouts for the first time to kindergartners. Cub Scouts traditionally begin in first grade. The new "Lions" division for kindergartners has been tried in only a few locations around the country, Sander said. "We have a whole new market to attract," he said.

 

You can contact Staff writer Tim Knauss at tknauss@syracuse.com or 470-3023.

 

 

[BadenP]

CNY

 

Interesting article, and it seems to be an ever growing problem that the BSA continues to ignore. In spite of what many posters in this forum may believe the numbers of scouts are decreasing each year, other threads here have shown how even the numbers provided by National can not be believed. The causes for the decline are numerous, bad management, bad programs,and now councils are selling off assets just to stay alive. Why, why, why?? After a hundred years of being one of the best youth programs out there are we witnessing its slow and very sad decline?

 

There are some awesome and successful units out there with terrific programs and they are to be congratulated, but as the BSA infrastructure continues to errode will even these units be able to survive. The units I am working with are still growing ,but our council is in serious financial straits and United Way has now pulled out entirely.

 

We as scouters need to do all we can to support our councils and the BSA professionals need to develop a much better vision for the future, as well as clean up their act.

 

Of course there is the other proposition that the Boy Scouts has simply ceased to be relevant to the society of today and is archaic and outdated in its approach. I hope that is not the case, after serving in scouting for over 25 years and watching changes in our youth today there is a real need for this program now more than ever. If the BSA does ever cease to exsist, it would be a huge loss to our society as a whole, and especially to our youth.

[Beavah]

Yah.

 

Would someone tell me how sellin' a capital asset (gaining one-time money) helps solve the problem of a large structural deficit (recurring year-over-year losses)?

 

To solve a structural deficit, yeh need to cut recurring costs, like exec. salaries, eh? Or yeh need to improve recurring revenues. Sellin' their admin building might help, if they also cut staff.

 

Yah, it may be an OK thing to sell this camp if they have others nearby, and if they can use the money for some other capital need that builds program. But it's a very poor business decision to sell to cover a deficit.

 

 

[CNYScouter]

A task force led by someone from "National" reviewed our council's situation and made these recommendations.

 

One of the other recommendations was to add another professional - an Operations Director????

 

The camp that the council wants to sell is 450 acres with a 40 acre lake. It is a dining hall summer camp. The program ran for 3 weeks this year with 259 scouts in attendance. This is also used for Cub Camp during the summer. In the off season it is used for JLT and OA Fall Ordeal. One of the big controveries is the off-seaon use. The council only had a record of 29 Scouts using it off season. Many Troops had said they camped there but council had no tour permits to back this up.

 

One of our other camps is used strictly for Cub Scouts Summer Programs. A great deal of training is done there during the year and it gets used a lot in the off season.

 

The third camp is 1200 acres. It hadover 1250 Scouts in 6 weeks. No Cub Program. It is patrol cooking style. However it is unaccessable for winter use.

 

It was also suggested that the council build a dinning hall at this third camp. It looks like the state may in the next few years ban "patrol style" camps.

 

We only just begun the agrement of where to place the council offices once the sale has gone through. 2/3 of the councils population is located in the southern part of the distict with the northern part over 4 hours away.

[scoutldr]

Sometimes selling off a capital asset will eliminate ongoing expenses. Our SE regularly threatens to close and sell our camp, which was paid for back in the late 50's. He says it costs $10,000 a month to maintain it, or $2500 per weekend. That expense is not covered by summer camp fees, which barely covers summer camp expenses. The answer is to recruit more members, who can sell more popcorn and who have parents who will donate to FOS campaigns. Sadly, it sounds like that ain't gonna happen. That camp is the one I attended as an 11 year old in 1966, and both of my sons attended in the 80's. If the camp goes, while the SE continues to receive a 6 figure salary, my long tenure in the BSA will come to a close.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[nldscout]

scoutldr

 

The only proble is selling the Camp that CNY is talking about will get the council a one time infusion of cash it will do nothing in the long run. Last year it cost the council only about 10K more in expenses to keep open than it took in in revenue. And that is using the numbers the council said went there. Which we have already shown to be way off base.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, OK. Sell a camp to try to fix a structural deficit (dumb), then hire an Operations Director to increase the structural deficit (dumber), while having one less camp operation to direct (dumbest).

 

On the surface, I'd say this kind of inept unprofessional management should simply be fired, eh? Is there more to da story?

[nldscout]

Beavah

 

This is my council as well as CNY's

 

There is a lot more to this story, however since I am forbidden from publically discussing it, I will just say we are working to avoid selling the camp.

[CNYScouter]

National came in and with a "Task Force" of local peole evaluated the council.

 

Their answer was to sell property, combine districts and reduce services.

 

How about how to increase the "quality" of our units.

I'll bet no one on ths "Task Force" went out and did an evaluation on how to increase membership so we didn't have to do these other things.

 

From our numbers its not hard to see that 1/2 our districts saw an increase in the number of Scouts and 2 district's stayed the same in size.

Almost all of the councils losses came from one District.

This district lossed almost 700 Scouts in one year.

 

We have units that contantly run a good scout program and they are thriving but are very few in numbers.

I seem to be running into more and more adult-run "Eagle Mills" that can't keep a kid in Scouting after 14.

 

I would have really liked "National" give us ideas to improve the program than just say to cut everything.

[John-in-KC]

Overall, I agree with Beavah. In any business, selling a capital asset, and obtaining one-time monies, does not fix a structural problem in operational finances.

 

That said, a camp that supports

[CNYScouter]

The merger of two councils in 1999 is how our council has 3 camps.

 

All of these camps have long histories of 60+ years in their respective councils so feelings run deep not to get rid of any.

 

The "Task Force" did contain both volunteers and professionals.

 

This camp did run at a loss last year but the selling of it will not come close in helping the council make up the shortfall we are facing.

 

The decision to sell this camp and the other suggestions will be out for a vote at the end of September.

 

There is a great deal of effort by the volunteers in the council to try and come up with a way to not have to sell any of these camps.

 

[Eamonn]

"I would have really liked "National" give us ideas to improve the program than just say to cut everything"

The program is for the most part fine and dandy.

Give it a chance and it works.

The problem is in the delivery.

We the volunteers are in the delivery business.

I think just about every person who visits this site could list reasons why kids are not joining Scouts.

I for one am fed up to the hind teeth with new and innovative ideas that will "Fix " the problem.

I know that this is the 21st century. I'm more than willing to move with the times.

I really wish that someone would tell the guys at "National" that kids don't give a hoot about "Timeless Values"

Hey!! This isn't rocket science. Kids want to have fun, they want to do exciting and adventurous activities, they like being challenged.

New leaders want to know how to do the every day stuff:

How to run a Den Meeting or Troop Meeting. How to go about raising money to get the kids away to participate in the adventurous activities.

When I read about us selling off camps, I'm reminded of the story about the cliff.

At the top of the cliff there was a very nasty bend, with no guard rail, every month or so a car would drive off the cliff.

At the bottom of the cliff was a small town. The people in the small town seen the cars coming over the cliff. So they got together and raised money to buy the best possible ambulance. They were all very proud of their ambulance and boasted about how many lives they saved.

Still year after year the cars drove off the cliff because there wasn't a rail.

We seem happy to spend big bucks on offices and are willing to pay more and more people to help support Scouting -When what we need is just a guard rail

Eamonn.

[CNYScouter]

I didn't mean to suggest that "National" should change the program but should have said "give us ideas to improve the delivery of the program".

 

We have Troops in our council that do a really good job presenting the Scouting program and they are booming, but are few and far between.

 

This shows me that the Scouting program is still relevant if it is delivered as intended by the BSA.

But there are just too manu units doing thier own thing, changing the guideline so it no longer looks like a Scouting program.

[Eamonn]

Leaders who don't follow the program?

Some think that they know best.

Some have fallen into the "We always do it this way!" trap.

While some Councils and Districts do a better job of training than others. All the information is out there and not that hard to find.

Sure when I was District Commissioner there were a couple of units that for the sake of the Scouts in the units, I wished would close. Sadly it seems to take a long time for a dieing unit to draw it's last breath and every now and then something happens and they start to recover.

But with the set up we have with CO who can close a unit?

With the goals that Districts and DE's face, no one wants to see a unit close.

Many of the CO's seem to not know that the Scouting unit is a part of their organization. This lack of ownership leads to lack of caring.

I wonder if the local Parish Priest were to take as much pride in the church Scout unit as he and the Parish Council take in the choir, if things would be different?

Our church has replaced Choir Leaders because it seemed that the choir wasn't a good reflection of the church.

If they were to do the same with Scoutmasters and Committee Chairs, maybe things would be different. Maybe a lot more people would post here that they felt they had been dismissed unfairly?

I really feel that we seem to have a break down in communication when it comes to telling the CO the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

We seem so concerned and worried about losing a unit, that the CO is kept in the dark.

DE's seem to be so busy either doing program stuff that the volunteers ought to be doing or "Busy work" that they are not taking the time to have real face to face meetings with the CO and the Executive Officer from the CO, they are so worried about losing the unit that the fail to talk about the soft spots.

When will we all wake up and see that kids who are getting a lot out of the program do more to support the program, their parents are more willing to support the program and their local community sees the good Scouting can do and is more willing to support the program?

When are we going to admit that units that do a poor job hurt Scouting?

I'm not that clever, but I'm happy to compete with video games and kids who just want to hang out, I'm willing to work around and with sport programs and bands.

Bad haircuts and baggy pants don't hide the Scout.

Heck I'm even starting to like Rap music!!

I do not believe that sticking a kid in a Scout uniform makes him or her into a little Angel, I do believe that we the leaders get the kids we deserve. (Even if some of them are a challenge!!)

Eamonn

[scoutldr]

Or, we can go on making the best buggy whips in town, wondering why more people aren't buying them.