Pranks or YPT Issue?

[evmori]

I am not condoning the mooning but this did happen in the shower house, correct? And I know most Scout aged boys take showers with their bathing suits on. But still, it was in the shower house not at the camp site. Your son coulda experienced the same thing if a less modest Scout walked in and stripped naked!

 

Taking it to the next level should be dealing with it at the Troop level. Going any farther would be overkill! Sorta like treating a speeder like a murder.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

OK, my bad. Of course!... what was I thinking? Anything involving nudity is automatically indecent, the only way to avoid moral relativism in this issue. It can't be left to any subjective interpretation or else we're on that slippery slope to...not sure what, but it must be bad...oh yeah, moral relativism. After all if God had intended us to be nude we would have been born...uuuuhhhhh.

[OneHour]

The scout, as I was told, was sitting on the can. When my son came in and there was another scout in there, this scout stood up, pulled down his pant, and proceeded to show his derrie`re.

 

I wouldn't make anything out of it. My son was very upset about it and about an hour later, the acting SPL told me about the the other scout's getting upset! When there are parties who are offended, then Houston, we have a problem!

 

I agree. This is a troop issue.

 

Nudity is natural. Nudity used to offend someone intentionally is not natural.

[John-in-KC]

I think every Scouter needs to look at a "prank" with a filter of three questions:

 

- Does the activity knowingly and inappropriately hazard a Scouts' safety? (bed on the roof) IF YES, then SPL, Scoutmaster or professional service involvement is called for.

 

- Was the activity knowingly and inappropriately designed to make a Scout uncomfortable about his sexuality? IF YES, then Scoutmaster or professional service involvement is called for.

 

- Does/did activty unknowingly cause a Scout embarrassment or humiliation? IF YES, then SPL and Scoutmaster involvement is called for.

 

Remember a couple of key points from our YP training:

 

- Our Professionals have statutory obligations to report under most State law. If they get involved, it's going to escalate.

 

- If the Scout calls Mom (or vice versa) and says "Billy showed me his..." or "The boys put my bed on top of the leaders cabin" and she calls the DE, it's out of our hands as volunteers.

 

I like what someone posted about "permission is better than forgiveness". I also see a learning opportunity by SPL and/or SM to reinforce values of Scout Oath and Law (Is that really being Friendly, Jack?).

[Beavah]

Yah, John, this thread emerged from da grave, eh? Don't reckon any of our guys are goin' to be droppin' trou' in this weather .

 

But yeh gotta be careful. Statutory reporting requirements don't apply to pranks. Leastways not yet!

 

They don't apply to sexual harassment, either.

 

Only to a reasonable belief of child abuse.

 

They are primarily designed so that people with knowledge are encouraged to report parents or primary caregivers who could otherwise hide behind parental rights. Fact is, the way child abuse is defined most places, it's not possible for another youth to commit. In many places, it's not possible for a scouter to commit, either. Though both can commit other crimes, which have moral reporting obligations .

 

No need to fear this bugaboo, either. OK and even recommended to talk to a BSA pro if you need to, without any particular fear of things gettin' out of control.

 

Leastways, any more out of control than usual .

 

[LongHaul]

First up I need to make it clear that I agree that the incident describes unacceptable behavior. I do not believe it constitutes a Youth Protection issue and definitely not a YP violation.

OneHour writes; My son was one of the two scouts on the receiving end of the mooning and he was offended! My son, being sheltered from a lot of the ugliest that the world has to offer, did not appreciate the humor in it.

More and more I find that we are being asked to conform to the wishes of a single individual rather than the individual conforming to the group. For a period my assistants and I, at the request of our CO, were not allowed to openly discuss YP or talk about A Time to Tell or Personal Safety Awareness. The parent involved was of the position that they didnt want their son traumatized by being exposed to these thoughts of Possible abuse. They didnt want to destroy his naivety. They went as far as to request that we stop YP at the youth level all together because doing it when their son was not there would require all the other boys to keep it a secret from him. Our CO reached a compromise and we informed the parents of when we intended to cover this material. The parents finally pulled the boy out because scouting was to physical and rustic. My point is if we shelter our children we have to expect the culture shock when they find out what is actually out there. Be Prepared doesnt mean wear blinders. I was a competitive swimmer for many years and we all showered naked to remove the chlorine. In high school our gym classes all swam naked. When we swam in lane from one side of the pool to the other you invariably got mooned by the guy in front of you as he got out of the pool and you passed the compliment on to the guy behind you. Do it in the locker room and you would get Eds solution, and from anyone at every angle that had a shot to boot!

As to the actual instance I have several questions, which do not have to be answered Im just wondering about a few things. What are the physical arrangements of the bathroom facilities were a boy using a toilet is in view of those walking in on him? . If this is the case you should expect the possibility of seeing a boy with his pants down when you walk in. If you walk in on someone using the can you immediately do a 180 and walk out the mooner wouldnt have time to offend the moonee. It was said that the offending youth was on the can and pulled down his pants to moon the younger scout. What was he doing on the can with his pants up? If the older scout mooned the younger scout because the older scout knew the younger scout would be offended because of his sheltered lifestyle then this moves it into a more serious area than just mooning someone. Mooning may not be considered a prank by some and could be considered as such by others but any time we have an incidence of one person young or old doing something with the deliberate intent to cause another person discomfort or embarrassment we have to intercede.

LongHaul

 

[frank10]

Oh, this brings back a trip from long ago...

Two scouts came to report that Billy peed on them. Billy was a first year scout and it didn't sound like him. I like to hear all sides of an issue so I ask where Billy was. He was with another adult reporting the same case... only the details were diferent.

 

in the end it worked out this...

A scout had dropped hid flashlight (turned on) in to the open pit outhouse. Billy went in to use it but failed to lock the door. the two older scouts thought he was just there to look at the light like they were and pushed their way in before he was done.

 

I'm sure there was some blame to be had but...

 

[LongHaul]

Oh wingnut!  Same thing but no peeing.

         First night at camp a scout took his brand new flashlight in the three holer kybo. This was before Mag lites but that is what this thing looked like. Four or five D cells long and with that wide head. He had it sitting on the wood part next to him pointed at the ceiling when another scout walked in. Back then things were different and we had three holes because more than one used the place at a time especially at night when your tent mate wakes you as he leaves and you decide you have to leave also. Anyway the light takes a tumble down the hole next to the first guy and sticks straight up shinning a funny oval on the ceiling above the middle hole. Next day the leaders ( my dad being SM ) started lowering lines with loops and slip knots trying to lasso this thing but in the end it was stuck and that was that. The funny part was that the light stayed on for about three and a half days. Half the camp heard of the it and had to come take a look after it got dark. I can only hope that I'm helping give my Scouts memories like that and that they can read something like wingnut's post 40 years from now and be right back there laughing as three adults using sticks and line go fishing in the kybo for flashlights. And you just know that half the troop was trying to get in there with them to watch. LongHaul

[packsaddle]

So...let's say you caught one...how were you going to cook it?

[eghiglie]

 

Having just gone through SM training yesterday I gotta wonder what the outcome of this was. Meaning what punishment or counseling did the kid get.

 

I agree that if an adult did it, its bad news and a time of reflection (suspension) is needed. Hopefully he will take smart pills, but it ain't worth a lifeong suspension.

 

But it appears that if a kid does it its OK to minimize? Why?

 

We're supposed to be teaching them the right way to be leaders but not any consequences. I don't get it.

 

In the county I live in a mooning could land you in jail with charges of indecent exposure and public lewdness.

 

So I'm asking for someone to explain whey the kid who did is not deserving of some consequence? Like having to make a public apology, getting suspended from a campout or two, getting stuck on the duty roster with cleanup for the whole week, note home to mom.

 

Whether it falls under YP or not its still needs a correction made so that he thinks twice next time and other boys see the consequence of behaviour.

[SR540Beaver]

Webelos resident camp. My son had a brand new hat from the trading post. While in the latrine, one of his fellow Webelos came in and gave him a shove from behind. My son's new hat went down the hole. Needless to say, he wasn't happy about it and he certainly didn't want it fished out. The other boy's dad marched his son down to the trading post to buy a new hat. He laughs about it now, but not back then.

[LongHaul]

Eghiglie,

In the country that you live in if I walked in on you while you were in your own home in the bathroom and caught you naked would that constitute public lewdness? My campsite and therefore the Kybo which serves it are my home for the period I am there. I would no more walk into another sites bathroom at camp than I would walk into someone elses home. I do not know how this particular camp has its Kybo facilities set up but at our camp we have two toilets, one next to the other separated by a partition. When you enter the building you can see if anyone is sitting on the toilet. You decide to leave or stay if anyone else is in there. If its an adult I tell my boys they have to leave, and tell the adults to announce Leader in a clear voice if they are in there and hear the door open. Other troops allow boys to remain in the building as long as they do not approach the adult. Some troops have taken to hanging shower curtains up to block the line of sight but this also is a YP violation of sorts because it creates a secluded area. My point is when you walk in on someone and dont immediately exit are you not also doing wrong. We have two different shower arrangements. One camp has single showers, one shower for two campsites. Other camps have shower houses with multiple shower heads in a single room. If you bend over to pick up the soap its perfectly legal but if you drop your pants while in the dressing area its grounds for expulsion? With Adult and youth situations they are never supposed to be in the same place at the same time with reguards to bathrooms and showers and it is the adult that is responsible to maintain proper safe guards.

The whole concept, for lack of a better word, of mooning isnt something new. As Ive said we did it at swim team to taunt the other towel wielders in the locker room on occasion. Kids have done it out the window of cars for years. The problem is that today we have to worry about everyones feelings to the extent that the extreme becomes the norm. In St. Thomas there is a nude beach right next to the family beach. If you swim down the coast a 100 yards, around a few shrubs  . Different people view the human body differently, if you where a Muslim boy raised in a home where woman kept covered when in sight you may be offended by our standard female uniform. Coming of overly strong on this issue denotes that there is something very wrong about someone seeing someone elses naked body. Kids today shower with their suits on, we showered and swam naked in high school. I had a boy that changed clothes inside his sleeping bag because he was afraid someone would walk in on him. The act of mooning is inappropriate in a Scouting environment period. But when we drag in the public lewdness we must expel the person being mooned in this situation for invading the personal space of the offender. If I as a male walk into an area where I know there might be female leaders in the state of undress and stand there long enough to be mooned who would get expelled? If we go to extremes we open too many doors. Keep it simple.

LongHaul

 

[eghiglie]

 

I live in a very conservative city and county in a state in the United States. There is a local college in the city that has a ton of pranksters. I'm one of the county peace officers that happens to be stationed near the campus. Trained by the US Marine Corps in police work, retired from USMC five years ago. In the Corps we had our share of mooners and most got a Captains Mast.

 

The Scout Camp is on the other side of the same County and when I was a Cub Den Leader we were there quite often to camp with Cubs.

 

We local cops know enough between accidential and intentional. Not everyone goes to jail or gets a ticket for every offense.

 

On occasion though, there would be a boy arrested at the Camp for various serious antics, sometimes its a sexual offense. There has been a major focus on sex offenses in the State of Florida. If the camp staff is calling in some offenses then we're sure that even more are getting handled at the camp.

 

So what I'm actually wondering is what leverage does a SPL/SM have when a Boy Scout is caught doing something incorrect?

 

Is it corect for every offense laughed off for boys "as boys will be boys"?

What does it take for a boy to get sent home?

Or some extra camp chores?

 

If my questions are silly I will stop asking them.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Eghiglie,

You are 100% correct in that if we have a question, particularly in regards to YP, we are duty bound to ask them. The fact that the question occurred to us constitutes reasonable suspicion. Our Camp is in the state of Michigan, there reasonable suspicion requires the Camp Director to file an official report with council and I believe with the State of Michigan.

You wrote;

So what I'm actually wondering is what leverage does a SPL/SM have when a Boy Scout is caught doing something incorrect?

 

Is it corect for every offense laughed off for boys "as boys will be boys"?

What does it take for a boy to get sent home?

Or some extra camp chores?

 

In a boy run unit the SPL has the authority to implement the consequences for all offenses. The problem comes when no consequences have been established. The SPL can not be judge and jury. The SM should support his SPL and work with the SPL to work with the PLC to make sound reasonable rules of conduct and establish them in the unit. Is it correct that every offense be laughed off, certainly not, but who draws the line and where is it drawn? You say that mooning in your Marine unit resulted in a Captains Mast which means the unit commander decided quilt and punishment. In BSA things are a little different in that deciding the degree of the offense before deciding guilt becomes necessary. Is mooning a prank such as putting a spider in a bunk or is it sexual harassment? If its a prank then the SPL/SM hold court. If its a sexual harassment issue then YP rules come into play and the Camp Director and SE (or designate) must be involved. What would it take to get sent home? Wow thats a toughie. When I was a scout youd find yourself stuck on a Greyhound bus headed for home for a serious offense, cant do that today. Ive related incidents where youth have endangered themselves, others, and used vulgar language to the adult supervisor and didnt even lose water front privileges. Id say if you cant have the boy arrested for it then its up to the SM to deal with. Many of those feel boys will be boys particularly when its one of their boys committing the offense. When it comes to extra chores we go back to YP. If you single a boy out for punishment youd best be ready to defend that decision when his parents haul you into court. As our standards become more conservative our desire to impose our will on others grows. We either seek to arrest or seek to sue for being arrested. Everyone wants set the standard according to how they see it, protect me and my kid but dont discipline me or my kid. As has been said in other posts and threads what is necessary is a set list of rules and consequences. Then we just have to stick to the rules. I wonder how many troops have a mooning rule.

LongHaul

 

[Beavah]

So what I'm actually wondering is what leverage does a SPL/SM have when a Boy Scout is caught doing something incorrect?

 

I recommend torture as leverage. Nah, seriously, these arent silly questions at all, egh!

 

I think one of da things that happens a lot at camp is yeh have relatively inexperienced scout leaders or visiting parents, who are uncomfortable with "the discipline thing" on other people's kids. They might not know a kid that well, they might not know the boy's parents that well. They might be a parent of a younger boy and be uncomfortable confrontin' a big teenager. All sorts of things. Or maybe they're just not good at "setting a tone" if yeh know what I mean.

 

Scoutmasters with longer terms of service usually have better skills, picked up in da school of hard knocks if nothing else. And they have better long-term relationships with the kids to rely on when disciplining.

 

So here's a rough cut for me that others can add to:

 

*Haulin' my bed up a tree - gets a laugh and a complement on their ropework.

*Haulin' a first-year scout's bed up a tree - depends on the reaction of the boy. If it's the loud, self-confident 1st year leader and he's laughing, it gets applause plus some extra mentions all week to praise the lad for how well he took it, to further boost his confidence (and maybe some help to pull a prank of his own ). OTOH, if it's the quiet, weak 1st year and he's upset, it's a SM conference with the perpetrators and an assignment to make the rest of the boy's week super-positive.

*Gettin' in a minor fight with your tentmate on day 4 because you're tired and grumpy - gets a SM conference, an apology, perhaps a new tentmate who's a lot bigger than you, and a 7pm bedtime to miss the evening activity.

*A prank that goes awry, and causes minor hurt feelings or extra work, but was without malice - gets an apology and an extended service project along the lines of being personal grunt workers for the affected staff for the rest of the week.

*Settin' fire to your tent with the fireworks you smuggled from home, or doing anything else that's deliberately mean, malicious, or destructive gets you delivered home by your parent that same day. And then some serious conversations the next week.

 

But in all that I cant imagine ever calling law enforcement on a youth in camp. Eghlies report that law enforcement gets called multiple times a summer I find really hard to understand.

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)