All Volunteer-Run Summer Camp

[kittle]

Eamonn,

 

Our Council does not have another council camp. Old Ben is the only camp they have. Our Cub Scout Day Camps are not held at Council camp either. My son's Troop isn't having to change their plans for Summer Camp only because the already went out of council.

 

I hope that the volunteers can make it work.

[T165Scouter]

We're not as fortunate as other councils are in terms of the number of scouting properties owned. Old Ben is it. Camp Pahoka used to be THE site for summer camp and other activities, and I don't even know if the council still owns it. I doubt it.

 

Meeting the BSA Standards for long-term camping may very well be the downfall of this effort. There is a meeting this Thursday evening with supposedly a council representative present. He's supposed to answer all of our questions, with the main one being "Is this even possible?".

 

T165Scouter

[John-in-KC]

A couple of comments ...

 

First, to my way of thinking, Scout camp must cover its costs. It does not have to make money, but it has to cover costs.

 

I've done weekend volunteer maintenance work at my council camp for the past three years. There is always work to be done. Water mains break. Water plants fall out of environmental compliance. Boats need inspections; outboard and inboard engines need service (pre and post-season). The docks have to come in at our camp (the lake is a Corps of Engineers facility; they demand it). Kitchens have to meet health code, as do the food storage areas. Buildings need repair. Tents wear out, as do cots and platforms.

 

Camp fees cover food, salaries of J and adult staff, pool chemicals, ad infinitum. FOS and Council budget covers much of the rest. Capital campaigns cover new construction.

 

To me, closing a camp is one of those "canaries in the coal mine." It's time to ask tough questions through your Chartered Partner. The COR is a voting member of the Council; he can ask tough questions and demand they be answered.

[shepmidnitemaint]

The council closed our summer camp in 1991. Several troops banded together in 1994 to run a patrol cooking camporee in the summer. They followed that format until 1998. Volunteers in our council successfully ran a two week summer camp from 1998 to 2001 conforming to the resident camp standards and state Childrens Camp Standards, with staff actually paying to staff the program. In 2002, the camp program was reestablished by the council for a 5 week season and about 700 campers for the 5 weeks. Last year, we has approximately 1000 campers for the season, and have expanded to 6 weeks this year. We are celebrating our 50th anniversary this year, and a fully functioning summer camp with at least three weeks sold out is a great way to celebrate.

 

Contact me if you want to hook up with the volunteers in our council that made this happen.

[Kudu]

You might want to think outside of the "stay in one place" summer camp box. Our week-long backpacking trips are not subject to all of these regulations.

 

For a collection of personal accounts of running Troop Summer Camps, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm

 

You should also get a second opinion on the "it doesn't count toward OA elections" warning. Everyone who actually does this reports that they had no such problems with their lodges.

 

Kudu

[ronvo]

kahuna- re SE at camp, I feel your pain - you are think of something that was known as Scouting - today it is too much of a business - and SE are business men with "real work" to do - not "old scouts"

I worked two summers at a council camp as a youth in the 70's and never once saw the SE visit.

Eammon said I also have some concerns that if this band of Volunteers start running the camp it will become "Their Camp" -It's not. As if the paid staff from director on down doesn't think that!?

Also - In my old 1950's SM handbook a scout gave me (BWwherearrreee yooouuu?)- I seem to recall noticing how it talked about how to run a long term troop camp. Though I haven't read it ( I'm still a Cub Scout leader) I doubt the past few editions of the SM tell more than take your troop to council summer camp.

YIS,

ronvo

[Kudu]

You are not required to go to National Camping School to run a week-long camp for your Troop, Bob Geier writes:

 

"There is no obligation for a unit (or a group of units working together to

put on an outing) to follow the National Camp School standards. The NCS

standards only apply when a BSA corporate entity (council) offers a resident

camp for a fee (which triggers the application of camp licensing laws in

each state).

 

"A troop or group of troops that put on their own summer camp are no

different than running a camporee or a long troop trip/venture patrol trip.

 

"When we did this, our DE made it crystal clear to us that once we filed the

tour permit, we were to report this activity in the same way we would report

attending any summer camp, and that it would indeed count for OA (and for

the district's % of youth attending camp).

 

"As for the rest of it, yes, we sent an "early crew" to set things up. We

were using our own equipment, so that wasn't a problem other than being an

unusually large transportation logistics issue. We had sufficient internal

resources to handle all the activities, and had a lot of fun doing it. The

key is not to try to do everything... less is more.

 

"Kids loved it, and the use of patrol method was FAR, FAR, FAR superior to

the corporate camps.

 

"Hope that helps."

 

BG

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Proud Eagle]

The OA issue is a bit uncertain.

See this link for more info:

http://www.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-08.htm

I would take that to mean that for it to be counted for OA, it must meat BSA resident camp standards. My understanding is that even a trek at Philmont does not qualify since it is not resident camping, but is a high-adventure trek.

 

 

As for the answer given by a particular DE in a particular council, that is all nice and such but it doesn't hold any particular weight in any other place or time.

 

I personally hope the efforts of these volunteers succeeds. However, they need to be given realistic information about the challenges involved in running a BSA resident camp.

 

One final note, some SEs do at least make the rounds at camp. At RCM this past summer our new SE made at least a weekly appearance and took the time to make himself available to unit leaders on camp. Several weeks he greeted units during Sunday check in. In councils where the camp is close to the office this may not seem like much, but in our case it is about a 3 hour drive each way. (One night I was told after campfire he showed up and watched the campfire program and left without my ever knowing he was there. Don't know if that is the case or not, but that is what at least one leader related to me. I assume if so he was probably just passing through the area in any case and stopped in.) Down at Skymont a few years ago their SE cooked the steaks for the SM dinner. So there are a few that still know the importance of summer camp.

[Beavah]

I've never seen a volunteer-run camp, but it strikes me dat the people who take kids camping 12 months a year would do just fine at it.

 

There's a much bigger Scout Oath and Law issue here, though. Honor, trustworthiness to donors, loyalty to volunteers, helping youth at all times... all these demand proper, MISSION-CENTERED stewardship of resources. It is a scandal to pay executives high salaries with donor $ (in a lush new office building) while cutting the youth programs that those fundraising and donor dollars were solicited to support.

 

The scouters and CORs of your council need to live up to your commitment to the oath and law, and fire the executive board and the SE post haste. These people are stealing from children.

[Kudu]

As for the answer given by a particular DE in a particular council, that is all nice and such but it doesn't hold any particular weight in any other place or time.

 

Well, obviously it does hold particular weight in other places, since the BSA is a national organization and others have found that unless you are starting a BSA Council Camp, "there is no obligation for a unit (or a group of units working together to put on an outing) to follow the National Camp School standards. The NCS standards only apply when a BSA corporate entity (council) offers a resident camp for a fee (which triggers the application of camp licensing laws in each state)."

 

Holding your own summer camp can be a far more rewarding experience than attending a typical BSA Merit Badge factory summer camp. It is especially beneficial to the Patrol Method.

 

T165Scouter, if you read the accounts at the following URL and find that this is what you have in mind, you may want to discuss it with some of these authors (especially Bob Geier and Cliff Golden) before you ask the wrong Council executive in the wrong way for the wrong information. Message me and I will send you their Email addresses.

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm

 

Be sure to note the links for additional stories listed under "Additional Information."

 

The BSA is filled with professionals that don't really know what they are talking about, and it is best to be armed with the correct information before you meet with someone whose first impulse may be to say "no."

 

Kudu

 

 

[Kahuna]

The BSA is filled with professionals that don't really know what they are talking about, and it is best to be armed with the correct information before you meet with someone whose first impulse may be to say "no."

 

They would know a heck of a lot more if they got out of their air-conditioned offices and had to run a summer camp. Having said that, some of the worst camp directors I ever encountered were DE's. Back in ancient times when I was camp staffer, we had a volunteer run council camp, but they sent out one of the DE's every week to represent the council. Some of them were a real pain and wanted to change everything we'd been doing all summer. Then, there was this DE camp director at Camp Daniel Boone . . . But, that's a story for another time.

 

I don't know of any reason a troop can't run its own summer camp. We used to do a fifty miler every summer which featured all the aspects of running summer camp and then some (I know more about treating blisters and foot problems than a podiatrist). As to all the requirements, if you get a tour permit you should be covered, yes?