All Volunteer-Run Summer Camp

[T165Scouter]

Our troop is facing going outside of Council for the first time for Summer Camp. The reason being is that our Council Executive Board decided to eliminate the entire summer camp program. They said it was a losing money-making proposition. The Council has a Scout Reservation where camp has always been held, and a couple of Scoutmasters in our district want to head up putting on our own camp program. I see this as being fraught with problems. Have any here experienced something similar, and what challenges, problems, AND successes have you had? I'm personally in favor of going elsewhere but I want to keep an open mind on the subject. I'll be assuming SM duties after the start of the new year, and I don't want to be in over my head helping to plan a week-long summer camp program. I'll be busy enough with my own troop program.

 

Any insight that you could share would be appreciated.

 

Jim

T165Scouter

"I used to be an Owl..."

[SeattlePioneer]

It's not unusual for the very best Scout Troops to conduct their own summer camps and not use regular summer camp programs. If well done, such summer camps ought to be much superior to the merit badge mills too many summer camps revolve around.

 

But doing that must be a lot of work, and usually involves a good many adult volunteers. If you have some really talented adult leaders who are the spark plugs behind this effort, I'd investigate it carefully and have a bias towards supporting the effort if it provides an abundance of Scouting experience for boys and can be expected to keep them busy.

 

If the leadership is thin or mediocre, I'd avoid it.

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Proud Eagle]

You wouldn't by any chance by from the Buffalo Trace Council and be reffering to the Old Ben Scout Reservation, would you?

 

I would encourage you to consider all of your available options. There are many fine Scout camps all over the country. Some have great facilities, some have great programs, some have great staffs, and a very rare few have all three.

 

On the issue of running your own all volunteer summer camp:

I imagine it would be possible for troops to get together and find enough good people to offer programs and classes of all sorts. The problem is going to be finding all of the other resources you need. After all, someone has to go up before your camp and set up the facilities, clean and prepare equipment, purchase and store supplies, etc. Then during camp you will also need people in supporting roles such as a medical staff. Finely, you really should follow all of the national standards for a Boy Scout resident camp. That is quite a pain in the rear, even if you have all of the trained people it takes. Yes, you must have National Camp School trained people for many key positions to satisfy BSA's standards. It is really too bad when this sort of thing happens. Often with some creativity a way could have been found to offer the program at a lower cost (such as finding more volunteer staffers...) Unfortunately this requires units and councils working together in ways that are really quite unusual for the most part. Oh well.

 

My advice, go find another camp. You always take some risk when trying a new camp or program. With an established camp that is a manageable risk. With some new experiement like this, it is a bit more of a gamble.

 

Oh, and last, but certainly not least -

Do the Scouts have any opinion about this? I would think they may have some ideas about what it is they want...

[T165Scouter]

Thank you both for the input.

 

Seattle Pioneer: You mentioned the "merit badge mill" concept, and I agree that it is very appealing to get away from that. The idea with this camp is to have only the adults teach merit badges (which I like). To many times in the past I've seen boys teaching boys, and the level of knowledge, skills, and maturity is just not there. I have seen boys who are excellent merit badge instructors, but they seem to be few in number in my area.

 

The two Scoutmasters who are heading this effort up are EXCEPTIONAL leaders. They do have a reputation for getting things done, and making things happen.

 

Proud Eagle: Yes, I'm from Buffalo Trace. I didn't realize I was that transparent! :=) I see that we're "neighbors".

 

The Council has agreed to let us use Old Ben as long as we cough up $1500 for a "rental fee". Today at our troop meeting there was a very positive response from the boys (and the parents attending) about being a part of this. I quite honestly didn't think that would happpen, so now I'm more postive about going with this. Right now, I will ask lots of questions and be realistic about this endeavor...it's going to take a LOT of work on the part of many people.

 

The hope is for about 100 boys for the week at $15 a head. It's a bargain, and only because it's ALL VOLUNTEER.

 

Thank you both for your thoughts on the subject.

 

Jim

T165Scouter

[kittle]

T165Scouter

 

I hope that they get something figured out. I know there were some leaders concerned about rather their Scouts would get to go to camp if they had to go out of council. My son's Troop goes out of council, they go to Ransburg. But it just about as close for us to take the boys there as it is for us to drive to Old Ben. There are some really good leaders that I have met around the council that I think they can get it done if they want.

 

 

[Kahuna]

The advice you have gotten above is pretty good. I am absolutely appalled at the notion that your council is cutting summer camp. My first move would be to go after the Executive Board like Jesus after the money changers in the Temple. This is not limited to your council, btw, so I'm not just picking on you.

 

In the history of most councils, the first thing the Scout Commissioner or Executive would do is figure out how to run a summer camp. Usually it meant the SE would go out and run the camp himself. I would ask the SE what he and his staff are doing this summer that is so important they can't go out and hold a camp.

 

If a council can't run a summer camp, they should close their doors and merge with some other council.

 

End of rant.

[EagleInKY]

Running your own summer camp is very challenging. I'm familiar with a troop that does just that. They are required to have a trained camp director and aquatics director, just like any Boy Scout camp, which created a problem a few years ago when that rule came out. Now that they've got the certified people, it's no problem.

[SeattlePioneer]

I'm interested in wheregulations requiring certified camping directors and such come from.

 

 

My supposition is that a troop summer camp is a long term camp. That requires extra regulations, but no certifications.

 

After all, ideally this should be long term camping BY PATROLS, and the patrols should be cooking their own meals and such.

 

Swimming areas ought to meet the requirements of the safe swim defense, but there are no requirements for extra certifications for lifeguards and such.

 

But perhaps I'm in error. Does anyone know where these extra requirements might be detailed?

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[EagleInKY]

The situation I know about is that troops in our council were told a few years ago (maybe as many as 5 years ago) that any campout longer than 4 days is considerd a long term camp. It then falls under the same regulations as council summer camps. They had to get a camp director and aquatics director certified through National Camp School.

 

I believe the first year or two they "hired" the council's directors to play the role. I'm not positive about this, but I think they were primarily "paper positions", in that they didn't oversee every aspect of the day-to-day. They assisted with the planning and coordination and then left the day-to-day operations up to the troop. The last time I heard, the troop had two people that were going to get the certification. This was a couple of years ago.

 

I don't know if all of this panned out as it was planned. I haven't spoken to anyone in that group about their summer camp in a couple of years. I'll see what I can find out.

[scoutldr]

"...any campout longer than 4 days is considerd a long term camp. It then falls under the same regulations as council summer camps. They had to get a camp director and aquatics director certified through National Camp School."

 

That would eliminate many 50 milers done at the unit level (I completed 3 as a scout).

 

Since when is summer camp supposed to be a "money-making venture"? I thought if we covered expenses, that was doing extremely well.

 

[John-in-KC]

From a practical point of view:

 

The Council holds the liability insurance policy, and they are going to be the ones issuing the Tour Permit for you to have a week-long camp. National Camp Standards don't necessarily apply, but your Council may (and probably will) insist on key adult training ... particularly if the Council is opening up the Ranges, the Pool, and the Lakefront. Whether they accept that through the various trainings, or demand your adults attend National Camp School, is their call.

 

From my observation post, I would want:

 

- My Rangemaster(s) to meet G2SS standards: "Boy Scouts are permitted to fire .22 caliber bolt-action, single-shot rifles, air rifles, shotguns, and muzzle-loading long guns under the direction of a *certified* (emphasis added) instructor, 21 years of age or older, within the standards outlined in current Scouting literature and bulletins."

 

- My aquatics directors (pool, lakefront) to be BSA Lifguards per the "strong recommendation" in G2SS.

 

- I would conform, no questions asked, to whatever Medical Officer standard the Council sets.

 

Beyond that, planning the logistics (particularly ration management) is the long pole in the tent for doing your own camp. Is the Council going to give you access to their refrigerators in the camp commissary or mess hall? if yes, then fresh meats and fruits are an easy part of your plannig. If NO, then you need to plan more canned, pouched, and freeze-dried foods.

[T165Scouter]

Wow, so much good stuff here in this forum. You've all given lots of food for thought, as well as immediate action needed on some fronts.

 

I certainly understand all the emotion involving the cancellation of a Council summer camp program. I love our Old Ben Scout Reservation, and the realization that our program has been done away with is PAINFUL. Summer Camp goes to the heart and core of Boy Scouting.

 

The task before us is daunting, but it can be done as we have many excellent volunteers in the district. I think we can put on a great camp, despite the Council.

 

As far as National Camp School certifications go: Shooting Sports is covered, Aquatics Dir and Health Officer are in question, Camp Director is a NO. Does the camp director need to attend a week of Camp School? Anyone know?

 

We're supposed to have unrestricted access and use of all camp facilities. Logistics is a big question on many fronts and we have upcoming meetings where this will be addressed. There is also the concern with upkeep and maintenace of the camp property throughout the year. The on-site camp ranger was a casualty in this round of cuts by the Executive Board. Inevitably, this will fall to the volunteers to keep the buildings, campsites and other facilities going. What a job...

 

And finally, someone asked why is summer camp supposed to be a money-making venture? Good question. A balanced budget when it comes to camp I can understand. Even going into the hole, in my opinion, is acceptable because it's supposed to be all about the boys! This is a sore point with me as the Council had millions to build our recently constructed Council office building/Scout Service Center, but they didn't blink an eye when it came to axing our summer camp! What a contradiction...something I can't rationally explain to my sons. I can't explain something I don't even begin to understand. I feel Buffalo Trace Council has lost their vision, and in the process are turning away boys who want and need Scouting!

 

Jim

T165Scouter

[Proud Eagle]

Almost all National Camp School training for Boy Scout resident camp staff is one week long. Training is done at several places on several sets of dates each year by each region. It should be noted the cost of each session is at least $300, perhaps more depending on when, where, and what classes (shooting sports is a good bit more, for example).

 

All of the information you need is contained in a handful of publications (OK, think really big three ring binder filled to bursting...)

 

I think my NCS materials are out in the trunk of my car right now, otherwise I would give you exact names and numbers for publications (but I only have those given to Program Directors, so there are materials specific to each job plus those given to everyone...)

 

Here is a rough idea of the sorts of materials needed to find relevant policies:

2006 National Camp Standards for Boy Scout Resident Camp

Camp Program and Properties Guide

Camp Health and Safety Manual

Council Risk Management Guide

Guide to Safe Scouting

First Aid Log Books (three per week if memory serves)

Staff Training Guide

 

also special books, manuals, and training materials for the Directors and staff of each of the following:

Aquatics

Shooting Sports

Climbing

COPE

Camp Director

Program Director

Camp Commissioner

 

there are also materials available relating to:

Nature

Outdoor Skills (Scoutcraft)

Trek (High Adventure)

Chaplain

First Year Camper Program

 

 

Oh, as to the definition of long term camping, that is a bit murky. However, if you are camping in the same place for 4 days or more, particularly if with multiple troops and on council property, you are going to have a very hard time convincing your council it is anything other than a resident camp. I should note that unless you conduct your camp under the "auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America" you can't count it for OA elections.

 

Another thing, you should contact the council camping committee. They could be a huge help with making this work properly. They could also cause you all some problems if they decide they don't like what you are doing. [Those renegade Scoutmasters think they can run their own summer camp! Well just wait until we throw the book at them! (Of course when they throw the book at you it will be the first time you have ever seen it before, because they didn't bother to share it with you...)]

 

Finally, I think what they did to you all was a shame. It is a scandal in my mind. I can understand a council deciding it can't run its own camp. However, it should at least arrange to run one jointly with some other council. That way all of you guys would still have at least a nominal home camp. I would be willing to bet my council would have been receptive to working with you guys to make something like that happen. As the most recent past Program Director at Camp Roy C. Manchester (2006 have not been hired yet because someone forced the council to write and adopt an official hiring policy first...) I personally think such a joint effort could have been a great success if done correctly. Our councils have a history of cooperation on a number of things, such as the previous and the upcoming Powder Horn courses (which that has now been put in some turmoil as well).

[Lisabob]

My son's troop decided to run their own summer camp program last summer. Many things went pretty well (everyone came back with the correct number of fingers and toes at least). This year though, they're going to a traditional BSA camp instead. It seems they decided it was a good experience but far more work than they expected. There were also some who felt it limited the opportunities for the boys to try new skills or pursue unusual mbs, because the troop leaders were teh only people on hand to teach skills and mbs. Further, many of the skills that the leadership is competent are included in the troop's regular program. In fact, very few of the boys completed any merit badges and very little rank advancement work took place ("mills certainly aren't desirable but neither was the other extreme). It isn't that the troop leaders failed to plan for it - it's more that they apparently didn't realize how complicated it is to run a week long program for boys of varying skill/ranks, ages, and interests. That and everything took longer than they expected. It's different than just weekend camping.

 

There are lots of great camps out there. Unless you're absolutely wedded to the idea of staying put, I'd say take this opportunity to find another camp you like. Regardless, your council professionals deserve a swat upside the head for bailing out on you like that.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[Eamonn]

I'm a little shocked that a Council would not offer a Summer Camp Program?

Does the Council own another camp which offers a Summer Camp?

I am 100% for Troops running their own long term camps. My feeling is that Council Summer camps do little or nothing to help promote the Patrol method and the food is never as good as when the Scouts cook it.

I really don't think a group of volunteers can pull off running a summer camp. I'm sure that their hearts are in the right place, but there is the National Standards to comply with, which while I'm not up to date on all of them, I do know can be a pain.

From my own point of view I don't think I like the idea of paying to attend a long term volunteer camp!! Mainly because I don't want someone telling me when I'm unhappy about something that he is just a volunteer!!

Over the years people have asked me why I didn't become a professional? My answer has always been that if I did I would lose the option of telling someone that they were full of beans and to go stick it in their ear.

I also have some concerns that if this band of Volunteers start running the camp it will become "Their Camp" -It's not.

Eamonn.