What's He or She Worth?

[Eamonn]

I really do want to thank the Camp staffers that have taken the time to post in this thread.Please know that I very much respect you and want to thank you for what you are doing. Your "Take" on what being a Camp Staffer is to be very much admired.

However, I still think that we have to be careful. I am a volunteer in this organization.

I gladly donate my time to do the job or fill the role that I was offered.

At this time I do not do anything for this organization outside of being a volunteer. I have offered my services in areas that I am normally paid for. I offered and they accepted.

If the BSA were to ask me to do this full time, I would need to be paid. I have a good idea of what people who do the same job that I do are paid and I would expect the offer of employment would come with a salary within that range.

My requiring a decent salary would in no way be any reflection on what I feel about this organization.

As my son is only 16 he hasn't really had any real need for money. Sad for him, his father is not the nicest of fathers. He has said that he will not pay for a car and he will not pay for the extra money it will cost for car insurance.

The insurance alone is going to cost $1,000 a year. He is an active Scout, who would be a good if not great addition to our Summer Camp Staff. He has been asked by the Scout Executive and a few others. At present he has said "No - You don't pay enough." This is coming from him not me.

I suppose he could work at the camp and save enough to meet his expenses. There are seven weeks when the camp is open and a week for staff week, then about a week after for tear down.

When he goes to college his expenses will be a lot bigger. Without an offer of real money he will not even give working at camp a second thought.He just will not be able to afford it.

There are a lot of people who would love to spend the summer working at camp who would do a great job, but they just can't afford it. This is hurting the programs that we are offering the Scouts who attend Summer camp. Maybe the young people in our area are just mercenary, but as I look at the age of our camp staff I can't get over how young they are. Most will not return when they go off to college because they can't afford to work at camp and save enough for the coming year.

I am aware that money doesn't grow on trees and that Scout Councils do not have the money to subsidize the camp in order to pay the staff more money. This would mean raising the cost of the camp for the Scouts that attend the camp. If the cost becomes too high the attendance will go down and there still will be no money to pay the staff.

I wonder what would happen if National were to come up with a salary scale for camp staff?

I know that as a parent of a boy who attends camp I would gladly find an extra $25 or $50 to send my son to camp for a week if it meant that the quality of staff members would improve. $50 is only the commission on about ten cans of popcorn. Or an extra $1.00 a week.

Eamonn.

[CPStaff747]

I agree with you, although I think that it is a two-headed coin. I work at one of the most highly regarded scout camps in the nation and its mainly because of our staff. I think that on the one hand, a staff member needs to feel like the work they are doing is appreciated, and pay is a major incentive. On the other hand, I also spent some time working at a smaller camp with a smaller staff and there was more money to go around. I found that when you start jacking up the salary of a staff member, it starts to become more about the money, and less about providing a quality program for the scouts.

 

I think that lack of funding is the biggest problem. We generally hire between 40 and 60 staff members for a full summer. In the last couple years we've been having more and more problems hiring staff members to committ to the full 9-week season, largely because of pay. It's really a shame, some of the best staff members I know are 18-22 years old and have been working there since age 15 or 16. It is unfortunate that most of us simply cannot afford to come back summer after summer. I dream of the day that scout camps will be able to pay minimum wage starting salary.

 

I quite honestly wouldn't have even thought about staffing until I spent a week as a CIT, just seeing what it was like. I cannot even explain the comeraderie, and friendships, and lifelong experiences that occur at camp. We see some great scouts and always encourage them to apply for staff, but more often than not they are too busy or cannot afford it.

[MooseUseted]

"Well, the federal minimum wage is 5.15 per hour. The pay for staff should start there and go up based on skills required and experience. (not age...that's illegal)."

 

Well... at ~$5 an hour, I guess I would be a millionaire by now because being on staff is a 24 hr a day job. If not 24 than at least a 12.

[COIcampgirl04]

As Im sure you are aware, working at a camp is a 24/7 job or at the minimum 24/6. From the time you set foot on your camps property until the time you leave, you are working. That would be 850 a week. Some people dont even make that in a SUMMER. As Im sure you are also aware, working at camp you are provided with room and board. It is not possible for people to be paid an hourly wage AND their housing and food for an entire summer. Also, since you are of course posting in this message board Im pretty sure that you know that most camps pay in salary, which means that they can pay you what they want to and most people work there because they WANT to...not because they need the money and the people that work there arent there for the 'minimum wage'. If they were, they would be at the nearest McDonalds. But like I said Im sure you are aware of all this.

[Trevorum]

Most junior staffers are not paid "wages", which would be subject to the federal minumum wage law. My 15 year old son just got his first W2 for working of staff last summer (aside: Dad, does this mean I have to file a tax return?), and his W2 clearly stated "Stipend" and not "Wages". In other words, staffers are consultants who recieve a fixed compensation.

 

Of course that begs the question as to whether $100/weeek is an adequate incentive.

[CPStaff747]

If you can work at camp and "not need the money" then you should try taking off the camp goggles, and living/working in the real world for awhile... Its obvious that if you would pay to work at a camp, then you dont have a car, gas, an apartment, electricity, phoneline, food, or clothes. Its ridiculous how much we get paid. I am there to provide a top notch program for the scouts and that is all, but I could NEVER do it for free, EVER. Your lying to yourself if you think you can.

[COIcampgirl04]

im sorry you feel that way...if you have all those responsibilities to worry about, then maybe you should think about actually joining the real world rather than criticizing those of us who prefer an escape from it, such as camp.

[Eamonn]

COIcampgirl04,

I really do admire your enthusiasm.

Sad to say there is a real shortage of people who can afford to escape to camp. These Scout loving, camp loving, qualified and much needed people need money.

They would love to spend the summer at camp, but without a realistic amount of money, call it by whatever name you want: Wage or Stipend. They just can't afford to work at camp.

This means that in many camps the staff is becoming a group of people who are not so qualified and are the same age as the campers.

How does a 16 or 17 year old camper feel about turning up to do a Merit Badge and finding out that the Staff member is a Lad younger then he is? Worse still is that these young staff members who will be experienced "Old timers" will not be able to return because they too will find that working at camp is not going to pay enough to see them through college expenses for a year.

I feel sure that most normal people given the choice of working at camp or manning the hot grease at a fast food joint would opt for the camp.

I really do firmly believe that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Surely you have to see that if we improve the overall quality of the staff at camp, the camp will be better. If the camp is better more people will want to come and be willing to pay a few extra dollars.

Look at the age of the Lads attending summer camp, they are a lot younger than in the past. We are not doing everything that we can too meet the expectations of the older camper.

Our Scoutmasters are coming away from camp complaining that the staff are not meeting their expectations. I hear the same complaint time and time again "The Staff is to young and immature".

While money will alone not address all these problems, hopefully a larger amount of money will attract more applicants and the people in charge will be able to be more selective about who they hire. The staff will want to do a better job, because they don't want to lose a good job that pays well. As things are why worry the job "Paid peanuts!!"

We have Lads mowing grass in the small town near where I live, they are getting $25.00 for mowing a small yard. They can get a dozen or so a week.

I look at our camp and I see people who are retired and young really young (15 year olds) as the staffers. I don't know where the camp would be without the retirees. For many of the young staff members this is their first job, they have a really hard time remembering that they are not campers. Even with hours of training they just don't grasp the idea that they are in camp to serve the needs of the campers. They are having a hard time trying to meet the expectations of the campers and will never exceed their expectations.

We can bury our heads in the sand and try to pretend that the older campers are returning or will return, but it is not true. If it wasn't for the Cub Scout resident campers we would see camps cutting back. We used to have eight weeks of summer camp, we cut back to six. This again hurts the staffer going off to college less weeks means less money.

I was very fortunate that I was able to work an entire summer for no pay. The BSA gave us International guys a tour of the east coast at the end of our summer camp work experience. My Dad provided the money I needed not only for that summer but to see me through college the following year. I had the best time and loved each and every minute. If my son came home and said that he was going to spend the summer working at a camp in England, I would get my check book out. As it is he is off next summer to staff the Jamboree and pay to be a staff member, he is also off to Philmont with the OA Trail-Crew, the cost is very small but getting there and back isn't cheap. He is also forfeiting the chance to make any money next summer. This is what is really going to hurt him. I can afford to help him get to these places and enjoy them. But for the next year he has given up a lot of his independence, he will have to come to his parents and ask for the money he needs. He really wants a Apple juke box thing?? I gave him a small mp3 player and I don't see the need for this other thing. I can say that because it's my cash. If it was his, he could go out and buy the thing.

As I say I do admire your enthusiasm, but other people may have needs that maybe you don't.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[COIcampgirl04]

I completely understand what you are saying. At my camp, the staff is regarded as one of the best in the south. We also have one of the worst pay rates without being a volunteer staff. I am very aware of the fact that some people DO have to join the real world...but with those of us that don't have to quite yet...whats the rush? there is no need to try and push us into it. All in all, its mainly whats important to the specific person making that decision. Also, people are saying the 'amount of money for the amount of work'. You know what you are getting yourself into and it shouldnt be 'just work'. If its 'just work' then those people arent going to be the best staffers either. As far as age, we have 15-all the way up to 40's and 50's. The average age of our staff members is 19-22. Our CD and PD are in their mid twenties...and even our young staff members, where they may lack in experience...are sometimes the BEST counselors. If they arent mature enough to grasp that this is an actual JOB, they get sent home, as the case was last year. With the older scouts we have an outstanding program and is one of the most popular in camp. High Adventure, or the Ranger program, is one where they go to our rock face and climb, travel to several rivers for rafting and canoeing, and go caving in TN. Even though one of the mottos at camp is understaffed and overworked...i've never actually heard anyone upset about that. I remember one week specifically, when i was extremely sick...I started each morning at 600 getting ready,615-815 giving out meds, 9-12 doing first year camper programs,and the rest of the day I did nothing but treat kids...until midnight...not to mention teaching a merit badge, and working both in our dining hall and our trading post and having to deal with SEVERAL serious medical issues...Every week was like that for at least 10 staff memebers...switching depts. like crazy...but they loved every minute because they were there for the experience...so your paycheck shouldnt reflect the amount of work you do, because as my PD has said in the past...for the amount of work a camp staff member does, our budget should be endless...you just CANT put a correct price on that, if you did....every camp staff member would be rich. You are a teacher, a nurse, a psychologist of sorts, a professional organizer, a babysitter, a cook, a server, a fun director, a law enforcer, a tour guide, a judge for their small fights, a secretary for the paperwork, and so much more. Can you imagine the correct price tag? Its kind of like being a parent...they should make TONS and TONS of money for raising kids because its such a HARD job...and yet they normally go into debt...why? because that is the 'career' they chose. I understand what everyone is saying,however, you know the payment you will recieve when you take on a job...either take the job or find another one that DOES meet your requirements. As I've just read back...most of these people are talking about their 15-16 year old son, who woul 1) find it hard to get a job elsewhere anyway and 2) only have the amount of hours at a part time job to equal that of the avg. camp staff pay. and not having ANY fun at all and being stuck inside. As far as me not knowing what it's like to give up things for camp...I gave up my senior trip and a new car. So, yes...I do understand.

[CPStaff747]

I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one...

 

Granted your right, its not "just" work... but it is still work.

 

(just a side note) I think its interesting that your camp director AND program director are both in their mid twenties. I work at a summer camp that has been in continuous operation for 86 years, and our program director began working there in the early 70's. The camp director has been around for something like 10 years prior to becoming CD, and hes in his 50's as well.

 

Younger staff members most often do a better job of relating to the scouts, but usually thats the problem... They relate too well because they are so young.

 

As an EMT and having been camp medic, dont take this the wrong way, i'm not trying to offend you but i have serious issues with this story:

 

"when i was extremely sick... giving out meds...I did nothing but treat kids...until midnight...and working both in our dining hall and our trading post and having to deal with SEVERAL serious medical issues..."

 

Its a totally separate subject in itself, but you lose credibility when you use that as an example when as a healthcare provider (which i'm assuming you are since you dispense medication and treat injuries) you should know very well that if you are sick you should not be 1) handling meds 2) treating patients 3) serving or preparing food...

 

I completely understand the running around like crazy from area to area to make things workout the way they are supposed to.

 

"for the amount of work a camp staff member does, our budget should be endless"

 

He/she is exactly right, it should be, but its NOT.

 

Your right about the 15/16 year old finding it hard to find another job anyways.. but that too is part of the whole problem.. once that 15/16 year old becomes an 18/19 year old, its not hard to find another job, especially one that pays well. And i can tell you from experience that there comes a time when you have to prioritize, working at camp for a paycheck that is a joke, or not having as much fun working somewhere else.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I am glad that you don't have to worry about these expenses yet. Enjoy it while you still can.

[COIcampgirl04]

It wasnt a contagious sickness. I have a severe iron deficiency...I just get very weak at times...along with migraines

[Proud Eagle]

As the OA Lodge Adviser, I serve on our council's camping committee. The camping committee, among other things, oversees the operation of the summer camp.

 

I was also asked to attend the last meeting of the summer camp program committee.

 

I was on staff last summer and I intend on returning to staff again. (I would also be applying for Jambo staff, but since Jambo staff week overlaps with summer camp I don't guess that will be possible.)

 

At the recent camp program committee meeting we discussed what the approximate salaries should be for each position. Obviously the actual amount would be determined by the Camp Director, but the committee wanted to set out some numbers to serve as a guide for planning purposes. Now, I don't really think I should be disclosing the information discussed at that meeting.

 

I will, however, be glad to throw out some numbers I have heard from other sources. The highest staff salary I have ever heard of was $500 per week. That is the most I have ever heard of someone making. The least I have heard of a true staffer (not a CIT) making was $50. I seem to remember hearing that at Philmont pay starts around $200 weekly, but they deduct room and board expenses. (Recall that at Philmont, almost all the staff members are at least 18.)

 

As to who should be paid the most, I would say the pay scale should look something like this:

 

Camp Director, Program Director

 

Dining hall manager (orders food and supplies, plans menu)

 

commissioner, shooting sports director, aquatics director, high adventure director, COPE director, head medic, chaplain

 

other area directors, assistant ranger, medic, cook, trading post manager

 

dining hall steward, prep cooks, dishwashers, assistant medics, assistant commissioners, assistant area directors

 

sub-area supervisers (each shooting range, each section of aquatics)

 

instructors

 

program assistants

 

Obviously there are several categories that could be used to determine pay, such as:

summer camp staff experience

Scouting experience

expertise/training in area

responsibility for health or safety

critical functions (things you can't run a camp without)

management responsibilities

ability to independently execute their part of the program (do they require assistance or supervision?)

 

I know at my council's camp it was decided that fees should be increased and additional funds should be budgeted for staff and program supplies. This means staff may be paid a good bit more, though final figures have not been determined, it is possible it could be as much as double in some cases.

 

In any event, I know that last summer I lost money while on camp staff (12 month lease on an apartment, didn't really need 2 of those months), and I was one of the higher paid members of the program staff. Last summer we were really understaffed in many ways. We had more CITs than we knew what to do with but didn't have enough capable people to take care of everything. We wound up with cases where a CIT would have to cover a class for lack of staff, or the commissioner would have to go on a 2 hour expedition to buy food needed for the dining hall. It was really somewhat crazy.

 

I do think increasing staff pay is important. We should not expect people to donate their summer. On the other hand, we simply can not pay people a salary that equals the job they do. If we did we would need $500 per camper.

 

I also think it is even more important that the staff be treated well. It must be properly fed and housed. Opportunities for fun must be available while on breaks and such. Staff should not be beaten down with extra duties not related to their primary job (some of this is necessary, but it can really break people's spirits). Staff should not be stuck in one place from sunrise to midnight. Clear and high expectations need to be set for staff both in terms of job performance and in other ways. If one person is getting away with slacking off or with breaking rules the entire staff is demoralized. Some will work on despite the challenges, others will sink down to the lowest acceptable level of performance.

 

There are many variables that make a good camp. One of those is staff. It is probably the most important part and the most complex. I don't know exactly how to make a staff work properly, but I do have one or two ideas.

 

 

[scoutldr]

I just did a quick search on www.summercamps.com. Prices there range from $500 - $2000 per week, and I'll bet they have no problem filling their bunks. Our summer camp will be $165 per week this year, and we wonder why we can't attract qualified staff, maintain state of the art facilities, and serve quality meals. Go figure. Some parents pay more than that for a pair of shoes or a couple of video games for their little darlings.

 

Expecting the best youth to essentially work for pennies per hour is naive at best.