What's He or She Worth?

[Eamonn]

If you were the person responsible for setting up the pay scale for Boy Scout Camp, how much would you pay :

The Program Director?

Area Directors (Handicraft, Nature)?

Aquatics Director?

First year staffer ?

These staff members report for work on Sunday at 1:30 PM. Are expected to be at breakfast each day and Flag ceremonies work in their areas till 4:30 are expected to be at supper and Flag ceremonies. Get one night off per week and are allowed to leave the site after the campers leave on Saturday at 10:00

Eamonn.

They get paid each week.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[LNTGirl]

Are you asking because you have to decide?

Well, I can't decide numbers, but certainly pay would be commencerate with experience, amount of responsibility, and previous performance. I feel that paying one person of less experience than another (assuming they have similar jobs) sends the wrong message. It also causes unnecessary tension. Pay scales should be very formulaic, based on age, experience, quality of work, and occupation. The salary should not be an incentive to work at camp. You want people who are there for th

[Eamonn]

I disagree. I know many fine Scouts who would love to work at camp but can't afford too because of poor pay.

Hopefully when you hire people for a position you hire the best person possible? You are not going to hire the first year staffer to be a Area Director, unless he has outstanding skills in that area?

Anyway you still didn't answer the question how much would you pay?

Why I want to know? Really is of no consequence. But being as you asked.The number one complaint that I hear about Scout Camp is that the staff are no good. I happen to believe that we don't pay these people enough. My thinking being if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

I have heard of Scout Camps that pay as little as $100.00 a week. People try to defend this by saying that the people who work at camp do it for the love of Scouting.I do what I do as a volunteer for the love of Scouting. If I was trying to save money to attend college next year the love would have to take a back seat. It would come down to "Show me the money."

Eamonn.

[cajuncody]

I haven't been in scouting long enough to know about the types of camps that you are talking about but I do find it ammusing when referenced to our local day camp. I worked at the day camp this year that is supposed to be run by our pack. I was the only den leader from our pack there (Doh!) Our pay for the week of day camp was "a Camp T-shirt, $5.00, and all the hugs you can get". Now remember, we are the poor area here. Not only does the $5.00 not really cover todays gas prices ( I drive a 1985 Dodge Ramcharger with a live front axle and a big 360 engine, I may get 10 miles to the gallon but I can tow anything) but we were asked at the end of the week if we wanted our $5.00 or if we wanted to donate it. Poor or not I don't think any of us took the money. I think it would have been better to have given us a discount on our boys fees.

Cajun

[scoutldr]

Well, the federal minimum wage is 5.15 per hour. The pay for staff should start there and go up based on skills required and experience. (not age...that's illegal).

 

I have had many young scouts whom I have encouraged to apply for camp staff. The first year, they are expected to work for free as a CIT. Then they get paid peanuts. The excuse is they get free room and board (a tent and a corn dog at the dining hall), too, so that equates to minimum wage or better. The kids laugh at me. Even MacDonalds can do better than that, and these kids need money for cars and college.

 

"It's the economy, stupid." Love of scouting won't pay for tuition.

[johndaigler]

I think Scoutldr is on the right track.

 

If you want the best, then you need to offer something that will bring the best to you. You know what's out there in the "summer job" world for them to choose from - why should they choose you?? Eamonn, you're right about money for tuition and everything else these kids need to focus on. Some will come because of their Scout connection, but for many, it has to be a money thing, too.

 

I'm sure your money is not unlimited. In fact, I'd guess you'll have a tough time competing dollar for dollar. So, what else can we (you, in this case) offer them??

 

Most youths don't chip in for costs at home so the room and board thing is mostly moot. . . .Or is it? Maybe you can convince some parents that you're saving the household some money by removing the teen eating machine for a few months, and they could support the youth with a "grant" -- kind of like funding a community service project -- a family sponsored Peace-Corps-like experience????

 

Does their work experience count toward some achievement or recognition?? -- beyond CC's t-shirt! (BTW, how typical is that, that they guilted her into giving back her $5??!!??)

 

If they're already college bound, can the work count toward college credit??

 

Can you write truly magnificent recommendation letters???

 

Is there a local business that will honor their camp work as something truly positive when looking at their resume??

 

If there's a younger sib (or even, unit peer), can you offer a discount?

 

Can you provide study or tutor time/support to staff, so they're better prepared for school in the fall??

 

If the youth represents a Unit, can that Unit get a break?

 

Do Staffers get a break at the Scout Store or Trading Post??

 

Another direction to think is how Camp is funded in the first place. You'll only be able to raise fees so high, but other money comes in, doesn't it? How can those monies be increased so that your payroll pool is larger. Can the camp "make money" through additional usage fees for other activities? Like training sessions? Short term use of Archery and shooting ranges? Fishing and boating facilities?? All creating a logistic nightmare, I'm sure... There are probably rules and traditions I'm ignoring as well and the safety issues certainly would become more complicated, but . . .

 

Good Luck

 

jd

[dsteele]

Two things compete for the number one hunk of a summer camp fee -- staff salaries and food. Those are the biggest line item expenses summer camps have.

 

I find it ironic that those who complain about the summer camp fee being too high are the very people saying the staff doesn't make enough money. I haven't seen the cost complaint in this thread, so obviously that doesn't apply to you.

 

If you want to pay the staff more, the fees have to go up. Yes, it's true that the council may charge fees for training, etc. and other year-round use (if the property is accessible, which isn't always the case,) but often those funds only help the year-round camp costs balanace the year round expenses such as Ranger, Ranger's home, taxes, maintenance, etc.

 

Room and Board costs may be irrelavant to the teen working on staff, but they have to be factored in to the camp budget. The parents of those teens know how much they can eat and are used to paying for that cost, but do you think those teens with their locust like appetites eat any less when they're working at camp?

 

As to dollar amounts you pay, it's all well and good to have a standardized scale, but I think that can lead to trouble.

 

For example, perhaps the Camp Director is a teacher who is only looking for something to do during the summer. His/her salary keeps coming, so they elect to work for little or no pay. However, your 21 year old Waterfront Director, with no experience other than National Camp School, may need, actually need, to make $300 per week or he/she can't afford to work at camp.

 

I think camp staff salaries need to be kept confidential and that this should be taught during staff week. The only two people in camp who should know what any individual is making are the individual and the Camp Director -- and, perhaps, the Business Manager who gets the checks cut.

 

Now, it is possible that the staff problems at the camp in Eamonn's council could be solved if the fee were increased from $160 per week to $260. However, I would guess that attendance would drop because of the increased fee, which drives up food costs and lessens the need for staff.

 

Ever play Simm City? Each choise yields different problems. Yu have to pick your battles and you must chose wisely.

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

Unc.

[Eamonn]

I have to admit that I was hoping to see some numbers. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

I didn't count exactly how many thoughts my dear friend Unc. Used in his "Couple" But here are a couple of mine.

You are never going to please everybody.

People will pay for quality.

In our area troops fund raise the money needed for camp. I know that I rarely if ever pay for camp.

Keeping costs low is fine,but if they should go up and don't, when all of a sudden they go up by a large amount, it seems to upset people even more. "Why didn't they raise it every year" was something I heard a lot when the registration went from $7.00 to $10.00.

I think that Camp Staffers work more then forty hours a week. I know that I did!!

I agree that being selected and serving on camp staff is still in our council viewed as a big deal and by becoming a camp staffer you join a very exclusive club, that doesn't really exist.

You can forever boast "I staffed in such and such a year". This will lead to the telling of many war stories.

I don't agree entirely with keeping the salaries secret. In fact this could be the cause of so many complaints about the camp staff. Could it be that if the complainers knew that the staff were over worked and under paid that they would complain less. Maybe if the rate of pay was advertised as "Wanted Handicraft Area Director" With a full and accurate job description and "Salary Range from $240.00" Scouts and their parents might be more willing to consider working at camp?

By not employing older staffers we lose older campers. By losing older campers we don't attract older Staffers.

If we really took a long hard look at what we offer at camp and made it a goal to make camp more adventurous we would attract older scouts and would need older staffers to run the more adventurous program.

I wasn't very happy with the quality of the staff that I met when asked to do a pre-camp inspection. The staffers were real young. They didn't seem to be trained in what they were expected to do. They reported to the site a week before camp. The first few days was spent getting the camp ready, going over camp polices and youth protection type stuff. They didn't even get into their areas until late Wednesday. So they unpack what was packed last year, made lists of what they needed and then the pre-camp team arrived. We watched as these young guys tried to present the class that they would be teaching to to campers the next coming week. We reported back to the program director. By now it was lunch time. This left him with less then two days to get these guys up to par as well as sort out 1001 other things that needed to be done.

We have in the council people who are well versed in the skills that these Staff members need to know in some cases we have experts. Sad to say most of these guys work full time for a living and much as they might like too or want too they can't take a summer off to work at camp. With some planning these experts could meet with the staff members long before summer camp and pass on their great knowledge. Staff members who took this training would be Trained Staff Members and would be eligable for a higher rate of pay. This would really give the Council Advancement Committee something to do.

The goal is not to pay the camp staff more money the goal is to improve the quality of the camp for the customer - The Scout.

Eamonn.

[COIcampgirl04]

Being a current/former BSA camp staff member I can tell you that most all of us don't work there for the money, and some of us even end up losing money over the summer. Working at camp shouldn't be about the money, and for me, as well as my co-workers, it doesn't really matter how much we get paid. 90 % of us would pay to work at camp. That is not saying that the money doesn't help. All I can say is that my pay was FAR less than minimum wage, if you don't factor in the room and board. Most people think that being on camp staff is one of the greatest experiences of their life. The starting salary at my camp is not very high, but with experience your pay goes up, but not to what a normal summer job would be...but like I said, if people are working there for the money, they arent there for the right reasons.

[Eamonn]

The summer that I worked at camp I didn't get paid. At that time International Camp Counselor didn't. Add to this the cost of the return flight to England.

I was lucky, this was my graduation gift from my Dad.

While all the fine and noble stuff is fine and noble. There are many fine Scouts who would dearly love to work at camp if they could afford too. Many families struggle to pay the tuition costs and expect their child to save money over the summer to help pay their living expenses.

I fail to see why working at a Boy Scout camp isn't a normal job.The BSA has come a long way to ensure that the professional staff receive a fair and living wage. How or why is this different then working at camp?

Eamonn

[COIcampgirl04]

All I'm saying is...For the amount of time/work a counselor does/uses(most staff make camp their life) is far less...and its a salary wage...not by the hour...plus the room and board....I would be perfectly fine working for free....because our camp charges each visitor 5.00 a meal...so that it itself is more than my salary was my first year(17 meals a week)and once you add that to my salary then figure that the camp spends around 50 dollars a week for your general living expenses, then its over 200 dollars a week, which isnt bad for a summer job in general....and yes camp is more than just a regular summer job and MUCH different. You make life long bonds, you learn and experience soooo many things, and you live there for 3 months...I dont see many fast food summer jobs that offer these things. In my opinion, the experience is priceless. However, our council pays each person according to situation for the most part. It depends on what the person needs to be paid in order to be able to work at camp( within reason) as well as how much experience they have.

[COIcampgirl04]

All I'm saying is...For the amount of time/work a counselor does/uses(most staff make camp their life) is far less...and its a salary wage...not by the hour...plus the room and board....I would be perfectly fine working for free....because our camp charges each visitor 5.00 a meal...so that it itself is more than my salary was my first year(17 meals a week)and once you add that to my salary then figure that the camp spends around 50 dollars a week for your general living expenses, then its over 200 dollars a week, which isnt bad for a summer job in general....and yes camp is more than just a regular summer job and MUCH different. You make life long bonds, you learn and experience soooo many things, and you live there for 3 months...I dont see many fast food summer jobs that offer these things. In my opinion, the experience is priceless. However, our council pays each person according to situation for the most part. It depends on what the person needs to be paid in order to be able to work at camp( within reason) as well as how much experience they have.

[shanve]

The last I heard from the staff at our 3 camps was that the new staffers recieved $100.00 then it went up from there. If you were a site director (over 18 and had worked for 3 yrs. one being a cit) then you got $130.00 and if you were a director (as I was for cub resident camp)then you recieved around $300 per week. The perks were room and board and two staff t-shirts. This is the upgrade from the $80 they paid all new staff two yrs. ago. Staff works from noon Sunday to noon Saturday with no off time and are to be at all meals and help with the serving of said meals.

Our camp fees keep going up $10 a year and quality goes down. Camp fees for campers are $195 a week and we used to get free t-shirts and a patch as campers now we get nothing but the patch.

[CPStaff747]

As an experienced staffer I can tell you that, yes you work hard and make little money but that's all part of the job. If you are here to make money, you might as well go apply at McDonalds cause yes they do pay minimum wage. I can honestly tell you that summeer camps do not pay anywhere NEAR minimim wage. When I was a first year staffer at age 16 I made $1.75/hour and was paid for 48 work hours per week. 7AM to about 9PM 6 days a week is 84 hours, meaning I worked 36 hours that I will not receive pay for... But I justify it knowing that working at this camp is a once in a lifetime experience where i will meet people and learn things about myself and others that I might not otherwise have to opportunity for. I realize that eventually I will not be able to afford working at camp, and when that day comes as hard as it will be I will find a new job. THats the reality of it. As a third year staffer and assistant cook I made $3.75/hour. The amount you make is based on the area you work in, and how long you've been on staff. You have to earn a pay increase, and if you expect one, go somewhere else cause you're there for the wrong reasons. You should be there for the Scouts, that is your NUMBER ONE priority NO EXCEPTIONS. If you are not there for the scouts GO HOME.

[9muckraker7]

The wage of summer camp staff greatly depends on the financial resources of the council and council camp themselves. A council that relies heavily on the "benevolent generosity" of those "friends of scouting," of which there aren't many, would probably pay their staff small wages, and the summer camp staff even lesser wages. My council isn't very affluent in that, and the once camp director and program director, being the same person, only got paid for the former (camp director). Since then, financial conditions have improved, and everything in that matter has been run a lot more smoothly.

 

 

 

Generally, the positions which entail most responsibility would have the greatest pay:

 

Amongst the rest of the camp "administration," (not including any professional scouters involved with the summer camp program) the camp director would be paid most, then the program director, then the area directors and head chefs, then the other workers (merit badge counselors, kitchen staff, trading post workers, etc.). The CITs, from my experiences, have never really been paid anything, as they are generally younger scouts who go just for the experience and their love of scouting.