Camp Game or Hazing?

[evmori]

OGE,

So if the entire Troop is informed that lost items will be sung for and no one is made to do something they don't want to do, singing for lost items is not hazing?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[whitewater]

Life is full of hazing- I have to do things all the time I don't want to do.

 

I don't see singing for lost items to be hazing as long as it doesn't get out of hand. The staff has to be sensitive to what is going on. Our camp staff still has you sing for lost items but usually a staffer or 2 will join in with you, and if it is obviously deeply disturbing to you they won't push it.

 

I've seen kids that have been terrified to get up in front of people. Should we just accept that they are like that and see that they never have to get in front of a group, or should we encourage them to get over it through prodding, games, etc.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, at this point I have lost what I was trying to say. I don't see Suzzie as hazing as long as everyone is informed of the rules ahead of time and no one does anything they dont want to do. The goal is to get people to know each other

 

I see singing for lost items as hazing because the goal is to punish the scout or "teach them a lesson" by withholding their own property from them. How do they learn responsibility if they dont get punished or taught a lesson? Well, for all that we find, many more items are really lost, and the replacement of those items is where the scout learns responsibility and consequences of their actions.

[silver-shark]

"I've seen kids that have been terrified to get up in front of people. Should we just accept that they are like that and see that they never have to get in front of a group, or should we encourage them to get over it through prodding, games, etc."

 

Good morning Ed,

 

We already have a positive way of doing this. It is called the Advancement Method. In this, boys are recognized for the good things they have done in front of others. It's been working very well for many years now.

 

Critisize a child privately and reward them publicly, and you have an ally for life.(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

[kenk]

I agree with some of Eamonn's comments, but know from personal experience that the choice of participation is not always a simple thing.

 

As I've mentioned before, my son has Asperger's Syndrome. I find that he often just cannot understand the implications of decisions he makes. He will ALWAYS want to participate and usually cannot understand that there may be negative consequences.

 

I should mention that kids with AS tend to be very "bad" looser and winners. Because of the inability to understand social rules, when they loose they tend to have meltdowns, and when they win they tend to brag too much for other kids to tolerate.

 

The Pinewood Derby is a great example. Expecially a few years ago, my son simply could not understand that he might loose. The first time he was almost inconsolable, but we got past it. The derbies have proven to be an excellent way to help teach him how to loose (and win) with grace (that's a whole other thread). But it has been tough.

 

In my mind, no child should be forced by "scouting" to do anything that they truly do not want to do - period, be it wearing shirts backwards, jumping in a lake, or cleaning a latrine - whether or not they participate in any event. The image of a young scout in tears while being forced to walk the plank or clean the latrine is extremely unnerving to me. Its Scouting, not the Army.

 

If it involves something that they truely need to do - such as taking medicines, or changing their behavior - and they don't want to do it, then it is time to get the parents involved.

[evmori]

ummmm sliver,

That wasn't my post.

[kenk]

To clarify, I don't think this was hazing. I think it was a game. The important thing is that that leadership (adult or youth) should have the presence of mind and flexibility to evaluate the effect that the "consequence" has on the Scout and respond accordingly. If the laughs and goes along with the walk the plank scenario - fine, but if he screams and cries out of fear or embarasment, then the leadership should allow him to allow the boy take on a different consequence that acceptable to the boy.

 

This kind of game can turn into bullying if the boys start picking on an individual or a group of individuals. I can imagine, for example, that a bully would hold onto the tag and then pin the tag on the "target" JUST before lunch or dinner, OR might try to convince a boy with special needs that the object of the game is to hold onto the tag until lunch/dinner. It might seem like a joke, but if this kind of act happens repeatedly and/or in an effort to hurt/embarass the target, then it is bullying.

[silver-shark]

Sorry about that Ed... I scrolled back up too far up when looking for the author to credit

 

"If the laughs and goes along with the walk the plank scenario - fine, but if he screams and cries out of fear or embarasment, then the leadership should allow him to allow the boy take on a different consequence that acceptable to the boy."

 

Hi kenk

 

As soon as the boy cries out of fear, or looks for a way to publicly back out, you've added more potential for ridicule here.

[whitewater]

"As soon as the boy cries out of fear, or looks for a way to publicly back out, you've added more potential for ridicule here."

 

Not necessarily. If it does develop then a leader should step in. There is potential for ridicule in almost everything an 11-12 year old does but we can't eliminate everything.

 

I don't disagree that hazing is bad. I don't even disagree with most of what is said here (although I like playing devil's advocate sometimes), but I do think we get caught up in being PC sometimes and worry about too much.

 

Singing for the return of lost items can be hazing but often it's not and I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it isn't allowed to go too far.

[FScouter]

"There is potential for ridicule in almost everything an 11-12 year old does".

Maybe, but is it really necessary to intentionally add additional ridicule to the program?

 

Is the singing routine supported by any of the 12 points of the Scout Law? Does it conflict with any? Friendly? Courteous? Kind?

[Fat Old Guy]

"Is the singing routine supported by any of the 12 points of the Scout Law?"

 

It's part of the 12th point. The Scout often starts praying, "Oh God, why did I lose my cap?"

[evmori]

Is setting up a tent supported by one of the points of the Scout Law or the Scout Oath? What about cooking?

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I sometimes (often while reading this forum, now including this thread) wish the phrase "PC" could be wiped out of everybody's vocabulary. It has such a vague meaning that it often means different things to different people; it isn't usually used to mean what it was originally intended to mean; and its very use is politically and ideologically charged. To me, that's enough of an indictment to get it banned from the language. One person's PC is another person's courtesy. When I was growing up I was taught to avoid offending people whenever possible, especially if they came from different circumstances and therefore might not understand my words to have their intended meaning. Now suddenly that's PC, and I don't need to avoid those things? I can just say what I want and the heck with what the other person thinks I meant, or what they think about what I said? As I said, if the term PC did not exist, some of what is today "condemned" as PC would be considered part of "courtesy." So when someone says "PC has no place in Scouting," I have to wonder what that really means.

 

Now, do some people take the idea of "not giving offense" too far? Sure. But I don't think that's an excuse for throwing courtesy and respect out the window, and sometimes when I see people ridiculing "PC," it seems that is exactly what is at risk.

[Eamonn]

Scoutmaster to SPL:

"I have to see the Ranger, will you guys be all right putting up the tents?"

SPL to Scoutmaster: "Sure."

The SPL sees that all the tents are erected correctly and in a timely manner.

The Scoutmaster returns and thinks:

1/ Isn't it nice that I can Trust these Scouts to do the job.

2/ The Scouts managed to get all these tents up followed the leave no trace idea, they didn't waste time or damage the tents. Boy these Scouts are Thrifty.

3/ The Scouts are all happy to have worked as teams and got the job done. They really are a Cheerful group.

4/ The area is so neat and tidy. These Lads could be hanging out at the Mall with bad company. These Lads are a Clean cut group.It takes a lot of guts for them to not hang out with them other Lads they sure are Brave.

5/ Isn't it wonderful that I ask these Scouts to put up the tents and they do it. This a a group of Obedient Scouts.

6/ They really worked as teams and helped each other.

7/ The SPL even stopped to help the new Scout Patrol get their tents up. Isn't he a Kind Scout.

I could go on.

Eamonn

[NJCubScouter]

Is setting up a tent supported by one of the points of the Scout Law or the Scout Oath? What about cooking?

 

Doesn't this get back to the same old discussion of BSA aims v. methods? I thought the point is that the boys improve their character, fitness and citizenship (and self-reliance, which could be considered a fourth aim or maybe it is part of character) through the medium of the tasks and skills that are part of the outdoor method.

 

Or to put in terms of the Scout Oath: Does "physically strong" just mean being able to pushups, or does it also include being able to do things for yourself and have the self-sufficiency to figure things out and get them done? Or, if that sounds like it might blend in with "mentally awake," that's because it does. It sounds to me like learning to set up a tent, or cook, and actually doing these things, would fit right into physically strong and mentally awake if you look at it that way.

 

And then there's the Scout Law. Are you putting up the tent yourself, or with others? ("Helpful")Are others going to benefit from the work you are doing in putting up the tent, or cooking? ("Helpful" again.) Are you putting up the tent any old way you want, or are you doing it the way you've been taught. ("Obedient"?)

 

And yes, I do realize some of this is a stretch. But I think that Scouting activities are "supported by" the basic principles of Scouting.