Camp Game or Hazing?

[txscoutdad]

Well let me toss this out for us to thrash about on hazing.

At Summer Camp at a camp that is pratically with in spitting distance of our Mecca in Irving, TX, the camp staff has a game they call "Where is Suzzie?"

First, what is Suzzie? Suzzie is a peice of leather with the name Suzzie on it. The game goes that you pass Suzzie off to another Scout or Scouter at camp but when you do you must find out who they are and what Troop they are with. Object of game is to get people to get to know each other.

Well at lunch and dinner the person left holding Suzzie has to pick from a cup one out of several Consequences. The ones I remember are Free Drink at Trading post,and a few other good ones that I don't remember, as well as several bad ones like Walking the Plank (walking off a dock into the lake in front of the whole camp), Your Troop having to wear their shirts on backwards to the next meal,or having to clean your troop's campsite latrine.

Most occasions found an adult stuck with Suzzie and with a lone person feeling the consequences but one troop had to wear their shirts on backwards.

So there you have it.

Game or Hazing done in a Council Camp by Staff.

 

Where is the line starting for the ones going to make a phone call to stop this abhorrnet behavior.

 

Let me add that I do agree that there is Hazing done that is unsafe, dangerous and very cruel.

With no purpose other than the allow what is usally and older and stronger person to humiliate another person.

So what is it, Hazing or a Camp Game?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

How does "it depends" sound? If all troops are briefed on the game before it starts, then forewarned is forearmed and I trust no one has to do things they really dont want to do

[Fuzzy Bear]

There is a line, very narrow in width and most can't stay on the safe or sane side.

 

Suzzie could be a fun game if used wisely and it could lead to a great camp tradition but most likely it will be used to humiliate and use somebody for a laugh.

 

My first Summer camp experience made me the butt of a joke that I was trying to pull on somebody else. I was embarrassed and I deserved it but none of it should have happened.

 

After going to Philmont a few years later, I learned what a camp can be like and what traditions are about.

 

As an adult leader, I tried to make camp meaningful and fun.

 

As a Camp Director, I enjoyed a great staff that brought an amazing program to several groups of Scouts. There just isn't time or space in the camp experience to lend pain to another human being.

 

FB

 

[sst3rd]

It is "hazing" clear and simple.

 

You must accept the lowest common denominator in Scouting, as well as work, church, clubs, recreation, and the like. If someone takes offense to what you have said or done (no matter what it was or its intent), it is wrong (hazing for example). I took a "Diversity Training course years ago at my workplace, and it was simply put as "victim defined."

 

anderson

[Eamonn]

There has been in the past some discussion about Scouting being a safe haven. I like the idea that it is.

Scouts and Scouting should be a place where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit.

I have been informed by other wiser men then I that Scouting is no longer a Safe Haven and the new term is Controlled Risk. Much as I prefer the Safe Haven, in this case both will work.

If everyone knows all the rules of the game and agree to play by these rules, and the information includes the consequences.The game should be OK. However they should be allowed to opt out if they don't agree.

Many of us have been around the Little Lad who gets knocked out in the Pinewood Derby race and gets upset. For many of these little fellows it is their first taste of ever not winning.Many Packs are now not running a Tiger Cub race with winners and losers, and are giving all these little fellows a participation prize of some sort. As adults we know that we can never be winners all the time and we can't be good at everything.

Many of the activities we offer all of our youth members have some element of risk. We as adults do at times have to decide if the youth we have with us at that meeting or that camp are ready for that activity. I have been with a group of Scouts who would go out of their way to be caught with "Suzzie." They would relish the idea of wearing their shirts back-wards or walking he plank. I have also been with a group of Scouts who would be mortified if they were caught with "Suzzie."

I would hope that as a Scoutmaster the Patrol Leaders would really know the Scouts in their Patrol and working through the PLC, this information would guide the troops decision as to if we wanted to play the game or not. If they decide not to play there should be no ill consequences from anyone.

Eamonn

[txscoutdad]

St3rd,

I take offense to your post so you owe me an apology.

 

With regards to Diversity training I feel it is being pushed to the extreme by bleading heart types and our society will sink to the "lowest common denominator" because of it.

The mass being dictated to by a small minority in all regards of life. No room for your rights or the majorities because you might tread on just one persons right. My wife was reading a book about PC in standardized testing and what words are allowed and are not allowed. I don't recall the name of the book right now. It stated that in standardized test no mention can be made of the birds of the Owl family because some Native Americans believe them to be bad. You can not have a story about oceans because a person that does not live near the ocean may not understand anything about oceans.

 

 

[txscoutdad]

Eamonn,

I agree with all the things in your post.

 

[silver-shark]

Hi txscoutdad,

 

My first thought while reading this thread revolved around the the type of boy that would end up with "Suzzie". I tend to think that the mortified boy that Eamonn describes will not be caught dead with her, and that the boy that will, will be the "greedy looking for the free drink" type, or the "no guts, no glory" type that is seeking attention of any type.

 

With that being said, my impression is that the boys seeking this attention are doing nothing different than when they go out hamming it up for a skit. During a skit, they may be welcomed warmly or not. Positively or negatively.

 

The only problem that I see, is when you draw the rest of the troop into the negative consequence.

 

I don't see this as a negative/punishing consequence to the one craving the attention, but I do see that being the case for the remainder of the troop when it is added to them without their consent. Therefore, I would be opposed to that part of the game.

 

Keep the positives and negatives to the ones choosing to take the risk. (Choosing being the key word. Not forgeting to not take the risk like in singing for a lost item)(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

[Eamonn]

Silver-Shark,

I hear what you are saying and think I can see where you are coming from. I would hope that we as Leaders know the Scouts that we are leading.As such we have a good idea of the risk involved in whatever activity the group is attempting. Even when the group may be all for doing something, we can guide the Patrol leaders council into looking at the worst case scenario.

If this is presented as a game it is different then the sing for the return of your property as the intend is to have fun. The singing thing is just a way of humiliating and the intent is to cause discomfort or embarrassment. We are no way in the business of making our youth feel embarrassed or uncomfortable. Even when the need to discipline a Scout is needed we go out of our way to look for positive reenforcement.

Even a game of dodge ball has the poor guy who is hit first or most often, thats part of the game unless everyone gangs up on one player then the game stops being a game.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Oh God, Diversity Training. Oh Lord, please save us from ourselves. Isn't that abuse the straight white guys training?

 

If one person is offened, then we all have to suffer. I'm offended by the left hand shake because the left hand is historically used to wipe one's butt. Let's get rid of it.

 

I'm also offended by the term "square knot" because it implies that you aren't cool if you tie it, let's use the term "reef knot." Wait, "reef knot" evokes images of "reefers" (not referigerated ships) so that is offensive to me.

 

I'm also offended by grossly overweight people in uniforms that are two sizes too small. Let's ban them.

[Fuzzy Bear]

FOG,

You do not get your participant's ribbon today.

FB

[evmori]

txscoutdad,

Sounds like a neat game!

 

OGE,

If all the Troops are informed before hand? So if all the Scouts in a Troop are informed before hand if they lose something they will have to sing to get it back is OK?

 

sst3rd,

It' not hazing! It sounds like it is designed as an icebreaker. PC doesn't belong in Scouting!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[whitewater]

I think we often get carried away with the no-hazing, politically-correct diversity stuff. Suzzie is a game and it adds to the "character" of the camp and staff.

 

It's impossible to never offend or embarass someone and we can't go through life worried about it. As responsible leaders, we need to step in if it goes to far but I think we do a dis-service to our youth if we try to protect them from everything. When they get out on their own it will become quite a shock to them to find that real life is not what they saw growing up.

[OldGreyEagle]

Touche Ed,

 

But remember I said

 

"...I trust no one has to do things they really dont want to do..."

 

[boleta]

txscoutdad

Great thread. The party line would be that singing for lost items and Suzzie would be hazing. But, the discussion has made me reconsider the party line. I really like the Eamonn's approach to the whole issue. If it is a camp game, then allow players to opt in or out. If it is a troop issue, it should be unanimous to sing or not (private vote so no one is criticised for saying no?).

 

One man's hazing is another's life lesson on responsibility. (Just like the piercings discussion).