Appointed Senior Patrol Leaders?

[Bob White]

A question was raised by poster dan in another string that needed to be asked. "How does one become an appointed SPL?"

 

The Patrol Method of Scouting, and as Baden-Powell said "the Patrol Method is not ONE method to run a troop, it is the ONLY method", is very explicid in determining Troop leadership. Senior Patrol Leaders are elected by the majority decision of the troop and then they appoint an assistant.

 

In the same way the Patrol Leader is elected by the majority decision of the patrol and then he selects an Assistant Patrol Leader.

 

All other patrol officers are selected by the Patrol Leader, and the other troop officers are appointed by the senior Patrol Leader, with consultation from the Scoutmaster.

 

I too was surprised to see more than one person say "appointed SPL".

 

The official Boy Scout Handbook promises boys that they will be able to choose their own leaders. Nowhere in the Scoutmaster Handbook or in any Scout Leader Training course is it taught that an adult selects the SPL or PL.

 

Leader elections are a pivitol part of the scouting program regardless of the age or experience of the troop membership.

 

I guess the question dan and I are probably both wondering is, does this practice come from an innocent lack of knowledge from new and inexperienced adult volunteers who have not had the opportunity to learn the program yet, or is it a conscious decision by adults to force they will over the boys troop?

[slontwovvy]

I'll try to take this one.

 

In troops, sometimes a couple of things can happen. In our troop, one boy was SPL for almost three years (in part because no one wanted to run against him, in part because he had the power and wanted to keep it). He was little more than a dictator, using the position for his benefit, but many of the Scouts couldn't see that. In order to allow more boys a chance at leadership, and to get the old SPL out of the office which he was abusing badly, an "appointed SPL" was summoned. Sometimes you need to just guide boys so they can see if it really is greener on the other side.

[Bob White]

Couldn't you have counseled the boy into a new position say as an Instructor, opening up the SPL position an maintaining the patrol method process of open elections? I agree that sometimes the scoutmaster has to guide the boys through suggestion, but isn't it more important to keep the promises we make to the scouts in their handbook?

Bob

[eisely]

Bob White,

 

In your interpretation of the rules, is there anything that would prevent a troop from imposing term limits, or adopting a policy that an elected leader could not succeed himself in office? This is not a new problem, and democratically run organizations, from the US government to your local service club impose term limits.

[Bob White]

Please don't look at anything I write as my interpretation. This stuff is straight out of BSA materials and training. If it's my opinion or interpretation I'll admit to it.

 

According to the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Junior Leader handbook. Troop rules (including election rules, and who can hold an office etc.) are set by the Patrol Leaders Council not the adults. In over 25-years as an adult leader I never made a single rule. I might have couseled a SPL about a problem he or I saw and asked him to address it it, but the decision on how to address it and who should be the responsible party was left to the vote of the PLC. That's why it's BOY Scouts. If adults want to be in charge they should join Rotary.

 

I'm not trying to be sacastic. I'm trying to impress the fact that the BSA method is unique to any other youth organization.

 

 

Think about when you were in school at scout age. Maybe you were on the football team or in the band. Did you get to pick your team name? Did you get to choose when you played or who you played? Did you get to choose your position on the team. No! Adults made every decision and you followed or left. We promise to make leaders and they only way a boy learns leadership is by being allowed to lead. Not lead sometimes or on somethings, but all the time and on everything.

 

"But the boys will make mistakes!" Of course they will and they will learn from it. Better to make the mistakes now then when they're older.

When they succeed it's their success not yours because they did what they were told.

 

A scoutmaster has 2 jobs 1. Train Junior Leaders,

2. Know the Needs and Characteristics of Every Scout

 

Too many people see the Patrol Method as utopian. It's not. It is the way we scout and it works ..every time it 's used correctly.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Sorry, sometimes I get overenthusiastic. The answer to your question is... You may need election boundaries but it has to be the PLC's decision as to what they will be not yours.

 

The handbook suggests 6 months between troop elections but leave it open to go longer or shorter. I've had scouts decide 6-months and some PLC's that went 9-months. Both worked fine. Patrols always decided on there own, most went 6-months. Most PLC's will say a scout needs to be 1st Class rank or higher. That's their choice, fine with me either way. I've seen scouts of all ages do a good job and do a bad job. It has less to do with age and more to do with how well they learn the scout leadership skills.

Bob

[evmori]

In my Troop, the SPL, APSL & PL's are all elected by the Scouts for a term of 1 year. Positions like Quartermaster, Troop Guide, etc. are appointed by myself for a term of 1 year. These appointed positions must be applied for & signed off by the parents prior to my even considering the Scout.

 

Bob White,

You have never made a rule in your Troop? I find that hard to believe. I also think this is taking the "boy run" method to an extreme. The Scouts need guidance and it is our job as adult leaders to provide that guidance. This means we as adults have to ly down the law from time to time. If we don't, we are letting the indians run the tribe! And that - I don't think - is what Baden Powell intended.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

"When you want a thing done, 'Don't do it yourself' is a good motto for scoutmasters."

 

"The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond."

 

 

"Train them, Trust them, Let them Lead"

 

These are just a few quotes from Baden-Powell

 

Here is one more "The patrol method is not just a way to run a troop, it is the only way to run a troop. Unless the patrol method is in operation you don't really have a Boy Scout troop."

 

This is what BP was thinking of.

 

You bring up so many interesting points it difficult to know where to begin. Allow me to address 6 points.

 

1. I am curious why the thought of being able to give the scouts more control over their own troop raises so many hackles. Isn't that the gaol of the program? Don't we want the scouts to have the leadership ability and commitment to be self sufficient? why then when you hear it's possible and that it is what the BSA program can and does make happen do you want to refuse it?

 

2. Don't think I'm saying you are doing a bad job. I'm not. I'm saying there is more to the scout method than you are utilizing and that you need to trust in it and in the abilities of the scouts to grow into the responsibility that the program gives them.

I'm saying that there is room for leaders to learn just as there is for scouts but you need to be open to it.

 

3. I have voted in a lot of elections in my life from class president to president of the United States and I never knew of one that needed written permission from their mom to run.

 

4. There is a big difference between giving "guidance" and "doing". When you picked the junior leaders rather then letting the SPL as written on page-13 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, would you say that was guiding or doing?

 

5. I have trained and worked with scoutleaders from across the country and I can tell you that I have met hundreds of Scoutmasters that let the indians run the tribe. Why? because it is the indians tribe! The adults are there to train them how to do it. Our time to do it was when we wre scout age.

 

6. "Scouts Honor" the only time I have "layed down the law" was on the very few occasions when I felt a scouts safety would be endangered.

 

I humbly ask that you take another read through the the Scoutmaster Handbook, or consider attending the new Woodbadge course in your area. There is more to this program than you are using, and I think you like what you find out.

Bob

[shemgren]

The Senior Patrol Leader is elected by the Troop at an election of the Troop. The SPL appoints, with the guidnace of Scoutmaster, the ASPL, and Troop leaders, with the exception of Patrol Leaders and Assistants.

 

The length of service is at the direction of the PLC, and many Troops have a rule againist more than two consective terms, again set by the PLC.

 

Page 13 of the Scoutmaster Handbook states "In a new troop or a troop without older members, boys are likely to choose a Scout whom they respect and beleve will provide the best leadership."

 

My troop has a rule created by the PLC that the SPL must be at least a First Class Scout and in practice, the SPL tends to be Star or higher and one of the older Scouts. Again, this is by the will of the PLC.

 

Please note that the SPL is not a member of a patrol.

 

Scott Hemgren

 

 

[AdvanceOn]

In our troop we have the parents sign the leadership position application. NOT for their permission so much as their commitment to assist their son be successful in this position.

 

I can't count the number of times (pre-application) that a boy was elected or appointed to a position and was undermined by his parents' lack of support, understanding, assitance, whatever. The application doesn't guarantee parental support but at least we can refer back to it when a parent complains about the time commitment, extra meetings, etc.

[evmori]

BobWhite,

Thanks for all the great lines out of the printed BSA publications. I think it's time you take your head out of the books & put it in the real world.

 

The thing I love so much about Scouting is teaching the kids & watching them take what they have learned & put it to use. Yes, I have all the manuals & books with all the rules & guidelines. Yes, I have read them. Apparently not as thorough as you have. And I don't feel I need to. My Troop (there is that reference again) is run by the SPL & ASPL. The Patrols are run by their Patrol Leaders. At Troop meetings, I teach. I don't preach. On camping trips (summer camp included) the Scouts are on their own. Do I do anything? You bet! I - along with the other adults - make sure we (adults) are comfortable & well fed. We also keep our 3rd eye on the Scouts for safety reasons.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

Evmori,

 

Would you advise a doctor to quit learning, or a police officer to not improve his marksmanship, or a firfighter to not hone his skills? The only time I give chapter and verse is when I have to give proof to scouters that what they are doing is not what the program is. I'm showing this is not my opinion this is the rule of the program I signed an agreement to follow. AND it works.

 

Why, when you say you're a scoutmaster and by your own admition you do not follow the methods of the program, do you get angry at the message and the messenger. If you are a lawyer shouldn't you follow the law? If you're a Scoutmaster shouldn't you follow the Scoutmaster handbook and the Boy Scout handbook? Why is that expectation unreasonable?

 

I've been in the "real world" of scouting as a unit volunteer for almost 3 decades. I've also trained at local, regional and national levels for over 20 years. I know what what scouts are capable of when they are taught how to do it.

 

You don't think that an 11 or 12 year old can lead a patrol..why not teach them? The BSA has said for 92 years that boys that age can lead. You don't honestly beleive they all the troops that do it are wrong? "If the learner hasn't learned, Then the teacher hasn't taught."

 

Just because you haven't tried the BSA methods, doesn't mean you can't change.

 

Bob

[Mommascout]

Bob White:

You have tried and tried to be helpful, courteous, kind, friendly and above all patient with Ed Mori. I've been following the dialogue and suggest that you abandon the cause because he just is not capable of accepting your superior knowledge. This is exactly the mentality I had to deal with in my son's former troop and I felt so frustrated at times with the stubborn attitude of a power-hungry Scoutmaster , a control freak that insisted on a 'one man show'. You seem to be a natural teacher and it is your instinct to help others learn in a positive way. (I recognize that because I taught preschool for 13 years and CCD for 5) But you surely must know that some 'kids' just never get the lesson being taught. Ed's ego got bruised when he learned he didn't know about the correct patrol method and he felt angry and embarrassed in front of the class. It's okay Ed, I forgive your condescending attitude toward me and hope you can step back for a minute and reevaluate what we are trying to say to you about the patrol method. We are all adults trying to follow the best program for our kids. We need to learn from each other and offer advice and knowledge to each other. This is my 8th year in Scouting and I learn something new every time I'm involved - whether it's on a campout, reading a simple brochure or talking to another Scouter who has had more experience than I. (and going on the Scouter's Forum! which by the way was my very first time yesterday!) So, Bob White - you did your best and now it seems that Ed wants to continue negative debate. Give it up and advise other Scouter's who respect your insight and wealth of knowledge. Mommascout

[Mommascout]

Ed & Bob;

Forgive my tone. I don't mean to come off in an Unscoutlike manner. I am very new to the forums and my goal is to learn from the masters and not be defensive or offensive. BSA has been such a positive force in my life and in my family and I guess I get scout fever sometimes. I'm sorry guys.

[Bob White]

mommascout,

 

I understand your enthusiasm and I apreciate you your comments. Mostly though I respect the fact that you understand what the program is all about.

 

Bob