cold-weather tents

[GKlose]

For those of you that live in cold weather climes, what do you do about 4-season tents? Our troop (here in the northeast) is mostly equipped with 3-season tents, and I think it is somewhat of an impediment to winter camping.

 

thanks,

Guy

[Stosh]

I've camped in the northern climes most of my life and year around. About the only thing I know about 4 season tents is there's some sort of frost thingy inside to control moisture somehow. With that being said, it is obvious I have never needed or even used one. One can do very nicely with 3 season tents in the dead of winter. The only problem is getting those flimsy wire stakes into the frozen ground. As a matter of fact I have a 4 season tarp for sale right now if you're interested.

 

Put your money into a -20 sleeping bag and you'll do just fine even if you meadow crash where the meadow is buried under 2' of snow.

 

Remember tents are waterproof and in the summer you want to keep the moisture OUT, in the winter with the dry outside air, the concept of the frost thingy is to collect moisture on the INSIDE of the tent because it doesn't have a way to dissipate away from the sleeper. Moisture is the evil in winter that bugs are in the summer.

 

Basically tents offer very little if any real shelter during the winter. At best they are a windbreak and you don't need a tent for that a nice 4 season tarp would work well for that. (Did I mention I have a nice 4-season one for sale?)

 

If the temps are heading sub-zero, it's best to build snow shelters because they can actually insulate the camper whereas a tent cannot.

 

After 55 years of camping experience, I've never even considered buying a 4 season tent and never was curious enough to know the principles of why they are even rated as a 4 season tent.

 

Stosh

 

 

[moosetracker]

We went camping this weekend during camporee, although not below 0 degrees did get frost on tent and lots of moisture in tent.

 

Husband and I used our one 4 season tent, since the 3 young adults (son, fiancee, psudo-son) used the other 3 tents. Maybe there is a moisture thingy we are suppose to open or something, and we have forgotten what we are to do, because all 4 tents seemed to collect frost & moisture inside about the same.

[GernBlansten]

I have a convertible 3/4 season Big Agnes tent. It's convertible because you can zip open various panels to manage ventilation (inner tent, not fly). Drum tight, or drafty. Kinda heavy at 8 lbs and barely two adults.

 

The key to reducing frost is ventilation. The problem with ventilation is heat loss. So choose your poison. With the convertible, I'll generally start out fully ventilated, then as I get colder, close it up in stages usually fully shut by 5 am. No matter the outside temp, I can keep it around 40 degrees inside with another adult.

 

I also have a Mountain Hardware Kiva. Its a floorless single pole teepee tarp tent. Once the ground is frozen or there's a good layer of snow, its my tent of choice. Not great for muddy or buggy areas. Just seal it up, let it condensate, stay warm. Can put 4 adults in it and it weighs less than 4lbs. Sheds snow great too.

[Gunny2862]

Here's what we do:

WE still just use the Eureka Timberline Outfitter 4, but in winter instead of two boys per tent

(which we let them do the rest of the year) we push four for the additional body heat (think one 60 watt incandescent bulb in place of a boy). Then instead of completely zipping the tent closed and/or venting at the top. We vent a small opening at floor level and maybe a two inch vent at the top. If you can't escape the wind, close the bottom opening.

As has been noted when winter camping snow does insulate better so digging out the tent footprint to sink the tent into the snow can help and siting the tent behind a natural windbreak is also helpful - although this can lead to inadequate ventilation or an adjustment to how much ventilation you give the tent.

 

Here's what I think:

I think the advice given about an adequate sleeping bag and ground pad, something warm to drink/eat before bed and possibly if it's really bad using those hand warmer packs in your bag(but ensure they don't bring a sweat!) is better than seeking out another tent. Personally I use a thicker head covering and down sleeping booties if it's just nasty cold.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Beavah]

Yah, only difference between a three season and a four season tent is that da four season tent is built to be able to handle getting a load of snow dumped on it without collapsing. Also tends not to have as much bug netting area so yeh don't get as much spindrift inside in a breeze. So it's just a bigger/heavier/more expensive version of a three season tent.

 

In da winter I hate tents. Tend to prefer snow shelters or tarps. Much better insulation in the first, much better ventilation in the second.

 

But it's just fine to go out in the winter in a 3 season tent. Only thing yeh need to do is if you are getting a lot of snow wake up occasionally and shake the snow off so the weight doesn't get to be too much, and ventilate as much as possible. Usually it's a good practice as soon as yeh get up to haul your sleeping bag out of the tent and hang it up in a tree. All the moisture you sweated out inside da mini sweat lodge of the tent has to have a chance to escape, otherwise that sleeping bag is goin' to be much chillier the second night.

 

Yeh really should never be counting on a tent for insulation value, eh? It doesn't offer much, and it's really inefficient to heat up that sort of space. Far better to get a good sleeping bag and heat up less space.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

Okay, I'm going on distant memory of an old guy here.

 

Beavah is right about the weight of the snow. 4 season tents tend to be more rugged, but thus, heavier.

 

The frost item inside the tent seemed to be another layer of nylon that suspended over the sleepers so that vapor coming off the sleepers rose up with the heat and collected on this extra sheet, eventually freezing rather than freezing on the sides of the tent. It was a way of collecting the moisture rather than ventilating it off thus increasing air movement within the tent. Whatever warmish air was in the tent stayed in the tent as long as possible.

 

I'm thinking then that this extra sheet could be carefully removed in the morning, dried out and reused the next night. This would minimize the collection of moisture on the inside of the waterproof tent.

 

It's been a very long time since I read about this topic and I might be full of hot air, but then that's not such a bad thing when winter camping either.

 

Stosh

[GernBlansten]

Most quality 4 season tents are built not primarily for snow loading, but for wind loading. They are designed for mountaineering situations where wind speeds of over 100mph can be expected. They also incorporate snow ports (dog doors) which allow you to exit the lee side of the tent no matter the wind direction. In mountain settings snow loading will not be a factor. Its always windy(especially above tree line), and snow will not collect on the top, but rather drift around the tent.

A typical 3/4 season convertible tent will not have the dog doors. Nor the wind loading capabilities of a true 4 season tent.

Needless to say, most scout units have no need for a true four season tent.

 

Interesting idea on the sheet over the bag to collect the frost. I think it would just be a damp towel by morning getting my bag wet. In my Kiva, you gotta be real careful dressing in the morning not to touch walls of the tent or risk getting a very brisk morning ice shower. We then just invert the tent during the day to dry it off or shake the frost off and stuff it for the next night. We rarely camp in the same spot two nights in a row either.

[ScoutBox]

I use Hilleberg Tents. Best on the market. But not cheap..

 

[acco40]

Agree withthe folks that state that winter tents are "winterized" for loading - not warmth or insulation.

 

Proper ventilation is key or you'll wake up very wet. Warmth is provided by your clothes, pad, sleeping bag, hat, etc. not the tent insulation.

[Stosh]

A quick look at a number of various websites on 4 season tents seems to indicate:

 

1) Stronger poles for wind/snow pressure.

 

2) LESS ventilation to retain heat.

 

I didn't see any tents with the frost collector sheet in them.

 

So, if one is going to use a tent in the winter and need maximum ventilation, they had better keep with the 3 season tent. As far as wind is concerned, it blows just as hard in the summer as it does in the winter. Snow collection on or over the tent is marked as a plus because of it's insulation properties, so make sure the poles are strong.

 

I'm still a fan of putting one's resources into bags, pads, etc. rather than the tent when it comes to winter camping.

 

Stosh

 

[CalicoPenn]

My question would be what are your plans? Are you going to be camping out on the high peaks of the Rockies in winter? Then you may need a 4-season tent. Otherwise, your three-season tent will work just fine.

 

My alma mater is in Maine - the school is an outdoor recreation and environmental sciences college. The Outdoor Recreation department classes camped all winter long - and no one used a 4-season tent. I worked for Maine National High Adventure and was an Okpik instructor (before it was rolled out as a unit level progeam). We used 3-season tents.

 

Unless you're planning to tackle Denali, or Everest, or the high peaks of the Rockies or Cascades, spending the extra money on a 4-season tent just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[GKlose]

I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback so far -- but I have another question: problems with small steel pins used as stakes are obvious. But what about fiberglass versus aluminum tent poles (standard dome type of tent)? Are there issues with one type versus the others?

 

As far as expected conditions, I don't really have a guess. We're not as far north as Maine, but winter weather is unpredictable. Rarely below zero, but routinely between zero and 30F mid-winter. Snowfall? Sometimes heavy, during nor'easters, but in some of those snow emergency situations, I could see outings being cancelled. More likely, during the season, freeze and thaw cycles, so that we have varying degrees of snow, slush and in-between. Frozen ground? Definitely, except during a thaw cycle when things get a bit muddy. New England is kind of all over the place.

 

Thanks again --

Guy

[CalicoPenn]

Given the choice between aluminum (alloy) and fiberglass, I'd take aluminum alloy every time - no matter the weather.

 

First - aluminum alloy poles are stronger. The tensile strength of a pole (which measures the amount of stress a pole can take before breaking) is measured in pounds per square inch. But we can't just use that measurement to determine which material is the way to go, because we can make aluminum alloy poles and fiberglass poles meet the same PSI number. What is important is the size of the pole and how that relates to PSI.

 

An aluminum alloy pole that measures 75,000 PSI (for example) is going to be smaller in diameter and lighter than a fiberglass pole that measures 75,000 PSI. If we make a fiberglass pole the same diameter as an aluminum alloy pole, the fiberglass pole will be lighter, but will also be much weaker, having a much lower PSI rating.

 

Under heavy winds, or a snow load,your aluminum alloy poles are likely to hold up much better.

 

There's another factor too, especially as it relates to cold weather camping. In winter conditions, fiberglass poles actually become less flexible, and the less flexible they are, the more likely they are to shatter. Field repairs to a shattered fiberglass pole is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible in most cases. Break an aluminum alloy pole in the field (and it's hard to break an aluminium alloy pole unless you deliberately attempt to break it, or are very careless) and you have a much better chance of making repairs that will at least get you through the weekend.

 

In a few years, this discussion is likely to become moot. The future of tent poles is carbon fiber. This material has been used in fly fishing poles and some golf clubs for a while now and has proven to have tremendous flexibility and strength. Some of the higher end tents are already using carbon fiber poles - as the price comes down, it wouldn't suprise me to see carbon fiber tent poles becoming the standard.

 

But until that day comes, stick with the aluminum alloy poles.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

I mostly agree with CalicoPenn about the need for a four season tent only if you are climbing tall mountians. However a four season tent that I use is pictured on the following page: blackwalnutjigs.com/images/elkcamp'04.jpg

 

sorry but you'll have to copy/ paste the link

BTW yes it is mine and it is heated by wood!

 

For Scout camping spend your money on sleeping bags and pads rather than tents. Temps above slightly below freezing can be very comfortable in a three season tent. If the ground is frozen increase the size of the stakes and use a hammer.(This message has been edited by brotherhoodWWW)(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)