White gas

[kahits]

Having a small troop that has been using propane (my lanterns and stove) for the past few years, we are adding two, new scout patrols, and will effectively triple our chuck boxes and cooking equipment. My ASM, who is on loan from the district committee, has continuously said we need to get rid of the white gas lanterns, and other stoves, because they are too risky and are no longer allowed. I have another, mint, Coleman stove that would work fine with the troop, but I thought I would ask here, for a definitive answer. The previous SM used white gas for everything, and other then some extreme cold weather camping at Klondike, never had a problem with them.

[AK-Eagle]

Simple question for that "expert"

 

If white gas is not allowed in boy scouts then why does scoutstuff.org sell them?

 

AK-Eagle

[Ohio_Scouter]

kahits,

 

In my opinion, AK-Eagle is correct. BSA supply division still sells white gas stoves, as do all BSA high-adventure trading posts. Plus, they work better than butane or propane stoves in cold weather and at higher altitudes when backpacking.

[kahits]

According to his father, who is my UC, the council they came from banned the use of white gas for all scouting activities, but our council has no such policy. His, my UC, opinion is that it is fine for older scouts, but new scouts should use propane. With proper training, I think it's safe for all of the boys. Something for the troop committee to help make the decision.

[Beavah]

Yah, kahits. No BSA prohibition on gasoline stoves, eh?

 

To be honest da worst burns I've seen have been from malfunctioning old propane cylinders. Pressurized gas is a bit scary sometimes. No way to turn it off if there's a leak, eh?

 

Up here in da north, propane in the cold weather months can be a problem. Takes extra work to keep da pressure up, doesn't provide as much heat, can be hard to start. Far safer for the lads to be usin' gasoline.

 

I know many troops that have only white gas campin' stoves, no propane. Their NSPs do just fine with it after some practice. Older patrols have no trouble without direct supervision.

 

Beavah

 

[gcnphkr]

It is always nice to check the G2SS:

Chemical Fuels

Knowledgeable adult supervision must be provided when Scouts are involved in the storage of chemical fuels, the handling of chemical fuels in the filling of stoves or lanterns, or the lighting of chemical fuels. The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited.

Guidelines for Safely Using Chemical Stoves and Lanterns

 

Use compressed- or liquid-gas stoves or lanterns only with knowledgeable adult supervision and in Scout facilities only where and when permitted.

Operate and maintain according to manufacturer's instructions included with the stove or lantern.

Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents. Keep all chemical fuel containers away from hot stoves and campfires, and store below 100 degrees (F).

Let hot stoves and lanterns cool before changing cylinders of compressed gases or refilling from containers of liquid gas.

Refill liquid-gas stoves and lanterns a safe distance from any flames, including other stoves, campfires, and personal smoking substances. A commercial camp stove fuel should be used for safety and performance. Pour through a filter funnel. Recap both the device and the fuel container before igniting.

Never fuel a stove, heater, or lantern inside a cabin; always do this outdoors. Do not operate a stove, lantern, or charcoal grill in an unventilated structure. Provide at least two ventilation openings, one high and one low, to provide oxygen and exhaust for lethal gases. Never fuel (example: all liquid fuels, charcoal. etc.), ignite, or operate a stove, heater, or lantern in a tent.

Place the stove on a level, secure surface before operating. On snow, place insulated support under the stove to prevent melting and tipping.

Periodically check fittings on compressed-gas stoves and on pressurized liquid-gas stoves for leakage, using soap solution before lighting.

To avoid possible fires, locate gas tanks, stoves, etc., below any tents since heavy leakage of gas will flow downhill the same as water.

When lighting a stove, keep fuel containers and extra cannisters well away. Do not hover over the stove when lighting it. Keep your head and body to one side. Open the stove valve quickly for two full turns and light carefully, with head, fingers, and hands to the side of the burner. Then adjust down.

Do not leave a lighted stove or lantern unattended.

Do not overload the stovetop with heavy pots or large frying pans. If pots over 2 quarts are necessary, set up a separate grill with legs to hold the pot, and place the stove under the grill. Bring empty fuel containers home for disposal.

Do not place in or near fires. Empty fuel containers will explode if heated and should never be put in fireplaces or with burnable trash.

References: Fieldbook, No. 33104, and Health and Safety Guide, No. 34415

 

From this we can see that either type of fuel can be prohibited in Scout facilities. Neither can be used without adult supervision. Unless "adult supervision" is similar to "active participation", both fuels would have limited use in patrol camping.

As for which is safer. They both can be dangerous. Tanks and canisters are bombs waiting to go off, values stick, outlets melt, leaks occur and regulators fail. Wood and charcoal (Note that lighter fluid is prohibited. Use a chimney and a bit of newspaper instead) fires are generally safer as long as proper precautions are used.

[Donning fire suit in preparation for the coming flames]

[Kudu]

My last Council banned white gas after an accident. A Scout was blowing on the embers of a campfire. Another Scout poured gasoline on it and it exploded in the first Scout's face, causing horrible burns and permanent disfigurement.

 

The Council's ban on white gas made it impossible to offer backwoods advanced Okpik cold weather training because propane does not work very well in extreme cold.

 

So the director of the Okpik program worked out an arrangement with the Council in which white gas was allowed only if an adult in a unit holds a liquid fuels card earned by attending a liquid fuels safety course.

 

So if it turns out that your Council does indeed ban white gas, look into finding a group of trainers willing to offer a similar permit option.

 

Kudu

[Beavah]

Unless "adult supervision" is similar to "active participation", both fuels would have limited use in patrol camping.

 

Yah, I reckon that would make it pretty hard for troops in areas where fire bans are in place for much of da year, eh? Remember, competent adult supervision is part of the Sweet 16 too, eh? But that doesn't prevent patrol campin'.

 

I also don't think I've seen anybody carryin' a ventilated, locked box to store their fuel in on a backpacking trek. I reckon storin' below 100 degrees F might be hard, too, in some areas. My favorite is the bit about needin' to set up stoves below the level of da tents. It's an interestin' thing to try to imagine in da flatter areas of the country.

 

I really thought we had taken that section out of G2SS a few years back, when BSA made the commitment to go to LNT. Then it seemed to reappear.

 

Some things on da list are excellent safety tips, and some are really dangerous (like #10, which gives instructions that may be exactly wrong dependin' on da stove). I reckon common sense and good judgment by experienced folks should prevail. Or at least followin' da manufacturer's instructions.

 

Yeh would think that wood and charcoal might be safer, but from what I've seen of da accident statistics, they're more dangerous. Lots more incidence of melted clothes and burns from fire that leaves da fire, eh? Or from people who fall into it while tryin' to work on somethin', or folks who spill hot liquids because it's more awkward and the handles get hot.

 

And of course, there's a reason for those fire-bans, safety wise.

 

There are a few council camps which at least nominally have no white-gas fuel bans in place, though mostly those have all gone by da wayside. A council doesn't really have the authority to prohibit a fuel type in unit campin', though it can discourage it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[gcnphkr]

I'd been with the troop for about two years before anyone even built a fire on a camp out. Fires for requirements had been built in backyards. In part this was because of fire restrictions, but I think mostly because using a stove is easier. No gathering of wood, making kindling, waiting around while the bonfire that they invariably build gets small enough to cook with or goes out, no putting it out or cleaning it up.

 

People do stupid things around fires. I'm sure that there are far more burns from fires, but I'd expect them to be less serious. But then, you fall in a fire you are going to be bad off. I've not found any comparative studied on the safety of the various methods.

 

I agree that 10c is stupid and 3 would be near impossible here in Arizona.

 

Stoves are nearly an essential on back country trips. I prefer compressed gas, but I know others that swear by white gas. If I was going to a cold camp it would be white gas for sure.

[red feather]

Common sense. Commen sense, and a bit more commen sense. All fuels are dangerous if not used properly.

 

The troop that I serve have had cases where a propane tank malfunctioned and we lost some gear, we have had white gas stoves flame up and we lost some gear. Thankfully we had no other losses. Note this is over a 15 year period.

 

As a youth the troop that I was with burned off 55 plus acres when a wood fire got away in high winds. All fires are an issue that requires proper attention and apporiate responses when bad things happen.

 

Commen sense, commen sense.

 

yis

red feather

 

ps. If we do not teach the proper safety and use of these methods, where or how are the scouts to learn them.

 

sorry, pet peeve

[Eagle69]

For backpacking I'd definitely use White Gas, for static camping I'm a propane lover. I can do many campouts on a 20lb propane tank that runs about $18.00 around here as opposed to $6.00 - $8.00 for a can of white gas that lasts about one campout. I live in Arkansas so even in the cold weather it's not too cold for propane on the big stoves. I have seen the problems mentioned with small backpack stoves in cold weather even here. We once had to heat a pan of water with a white gas stove to put the canister of propane/butane in to warm it so the boy could use his stove.

[AvidSM]

It's not that white gas is not allowed by the BSA, it's just not permitted for use at some campsites. I think it might be for insurance reasons. So if you are looking at the G2SS as a reference, it's the "... only when and where permitted." part of the guidline that applies. And, it's that particular BSA camp, state or county park that is not permitting the use of white gas.

 

Safety and insurance reasons aside, it's much easier to teach a new scout how to light a propane stove. But, I agree that there is an advantage to using white gas when backpacking or in cold weather.

 

The reason that propane does not work well in the cold is that in order to go from a liquid to a gas, the propane draws heat from the environment. That's why you get frost built up on a propane can when you use it. The colder it is, the less heat there is to draw and the less gas you can generate. White gas uses a generator tube which passes through the flame and picks up heat there to vaporize the liquid.

[anarchist]

long live white gas...off with the heads of well meaning, but sadly misinformed urban myth spreaders (like manure spreaders...but not a nice smelling)...get a new ASM! send the one you have back to district with a note to train the person before dumping him on a troop again...

anarchist

[eagle90]

Have you checked the price of fuel lately? I had to buy a couple of gallons last week - $8.99 a gallon!! WOW! Talk about inflation. I remember not too long ago when it was about $2.50!

[Gunny2862]

I've not yet seen a malfunction of a white gas stove or container(knock,knock), but have seen many of the small propane canisters of various brands (typically used with small Coleman stoves and lamps) fail due to poor seals or improper attachment(occasionally rather spectacularly).

Disclaimer, most of the above did not occur around Scouting.

 

As to the campfire incident related above - did the Scout just walk up and dump the gas with no warning, why didn't he get an adult if he was going to use a liquid fuel? Where were the adults?