Backpacking weights for Scouts

[Eagle732]

How much weight should a scout carry on a backpacking trip? Do you set a weight limit by % of body weight of the scout? What equipment can a scout buy that will lower his pack weight without breaking the bank?

[Beavah]

Yah, depends a bit, eh?

 

The pre-puberty lads really benefit if yeh keep things as light as possible. Post-puberty lads get proportionately stronger with much better muscle endurance, and can carry adult-like loads. Fitness of the lads really matters, too! I've never been crazy about the % body weight rules of thumb for that reason - the variance between kids is just too high to make that useful. It way overestimates for the unfit/heavy kids and is almost impossible to live by for the lean/light kids.

 

Biggest thing is not so much "what" but "how much". Most parents tend to encourage extreme overpacking, eh? Should be just one T-shirt, one pair of shorts, one set of layers. No separate-changes-of-clothes for every day/separate jacket for every weather condition. Nylon wind/rain shells rather than big coats. Do your backpacking with the younger guys in warmer weather where yeh don't need as many layers. A lexan spoon and a plastic bowl is all yeh need for meals (along with your water bottle and pocket knife). Leave the soap, shampoo, deoderant, etc. behind.

 

Of course then there's other common sense stuff - dry pasta and powdered sauce meals, no cans, bottles, or food with water content. Repackage all food into plastic. Small headlamps not 4-D cell maglights. Small tents or flies rather than the 3-4 person beasts. Reasonable mummy sleeping bags rather than big, incompressible, lined, rectangular Walmart specials. Small toothbrush and toothpaste tubes, not da big guys. And leave da cast-iron dutch oven at home.

 

It helps if yeh get a big scale for weighin' packs and a small postal scale for weighin' items. Helps kids and adults consider the tradeoffs.

 

Any site on "ultralight" backpackin' will give yeh additional ideas, but be a bit wary. Da ultralight crowd trade experience for no gear or sometimes fragile/finicky gear. We in scoutin' don't have the same luxury because the lads don't have the experience yet. But some of the ideas are still good.

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

I agree with everything Beavah says.

 

Just for reference, the BSA Fieldbook says to use 25% of bodyweight as a maximum. But the actual effectiveness of that limits varies tremendously from boy to boy.

 

Small backpacking stoves are great.

 

As a rule, the really pricey stuff just saves small amounts of weight and isn't worth it for Scouts. Especially when they are trading off durability for weight. You don't need the 900 fill down bag, or the titanium spork, or the lightest possible version of anything, really.

[raisinemright]

Beavah's got it.

 

I just started backpacking with my son and the troop so I've been doing a lot of research and a little bit of trial and error.

 

Skip the extra stuff. Be sure to do a full packout a couple days before hte trip and remove any extraneous stuff. Also, look for redundancies. For instance, they don't need a pillow. A jacket of fleece in a stuff sack is real comfy. If two boys are together, they might share some stuff like flashlights, extra gloves, cleaning and cooking supplies. Tents can be split up. Scouts don't really need sleeping pads, although I do cause I'm old and decrepit.

 

Cheap polypropylene shirts (walmart) pack smaller, are lighter and work far better than cotton are invaluable. A lightweight sleeping bag is good too. Takes up little space and is not heavy. Switchback pants are perfect for backpacking. Think about things that can be used for dual purposes. Raincoat and windbreaker. A water bottle can be use as a cup, although I prefer both. A scout should always have a first aid/survival kit, but it can be minimized. A silver emergency blanket can be a sleeping bag liner or tent groundcloth. Small pocket knife is a good bet.

 

Check out backpacking sites on line. backpacker.com is good and google backpacking 101

 

 

[Lisabob]

You guys are such good resources, I hope you'll give me a little further guidance on this question. So my son, a lean and smallish 13 year old, will be doing a 3 day backpack trip toward late March. It could be snowing and single digits, raining and mid 30s, or sunny and mid 60s (or all three). Of course we'll check the weather more carefully as the time draws near, but help me develop a better sense of what he needs to have or what to skip in terms of clothing. I don't want to be that parent that encourages overpacking (he isn't used to backpacking and I don't want him to carry way more than he needs) but I can't see a single change of clothes working either - he gets wet on night one and he'll be miserable the whole time.

[kb6jra]

Our troop policy is not more than 25% if a boy is under 14. The parent is to carry the rest of the weight for them. If a boy is sturdy at 14, if he's judged to be physically strong enough, he can take up to 30%. We don't want them overloaded and thinking backpacking is a negative thing.

 

Typically an 11 year old boy will not even be able to carry his 10 essentials before hitting his maximum weight. Mom or Dad need to come along for the walk and take some of his load, usually his sleeping bag and pad. Many troops don't want mom or dad to take an active part in the outings, and that's ok too, but someone's got to carry the things young scouts cannot carry for themselves.

 

Good luck with Bacpacking.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Raining and mid-30s. Hmmm. I think I might skip that one. Seriously. That can go beyond miserable into dangerous. It might depend on the attitude of the boys in the troop (how gung-ho they are) and the plans for the trip (where can they warm up in an emergency). But in a good steady rain, it can be hard to keep dry.

 

At any rate, I would definitely bring along one set of dry clothes, kept in a ziplock bag in the backpack. Especially socks. It's really going to depend on the forecast, though.

 

The last winter backpacking trip I went on, I wore six layers on top, ending with my rain coat. Long underwear, polyester T-shirt, long-sleeve shirt, hoodie, fleece jacket, rain jacket. Kept me more than warm enough even in single digit temperature.

 

If it's a cold rain, you need something that works really well at keeping the rain off. Rain top and rain pants. And a couple layers underneath that. If it's not raining (either single digits or sixties) you don't have as much need to have spare clothes, but I'd still bring along the socks.

 

I like rain coats that can double as warm coats. Also one warm fleece layer. The only spare shirt you might need should be one polyester-type. No spare pair of jeans.

 

Sorry for the shotgun advice (all over the place, as I read back over it). Best of luck to him. It sounds like fun.

[GernBlansten]

25% is a good rule of thumb, but some scouts will need to carry less, some can carry more. My son weighed in at 110lbs for Philmont and on re-provision days, his pack topped out at over 45lbs with water (40%). But he trained for it and could handle it fine. Some of the bigger/older scouts on the trek couldn't handle 40lbs without complaining. I tipped the scales at 195 and my pack tipped 65lbs on heavy days fully watered up (33%). Again, training for it made it possible. At canoe base, we routinely carried 60lbs on our back and 45lbs on our head during portages. But only short distances.

 

On a three day non-winter trip, you should be able to get pack weight down below 30lbs with water. Any more than that and you really aren't being a minimalist, which is what backpacking is all about isn't it?

[scoutmomma]

So my son, a lean and smallish 13 year old, will be doing a 3 day backpack trip toward late March. It could be snowing and single digits, raining and mid 30s, or sunny and mid 60s (or all three). Of course we'll check the weather more carefully as the time draws near, but help me develop a better sense of what he needs to have or what to skip in terms of clothing. I don't want to be that parent that encourages overpacking (he isn't used to backpacking and I don't want him to carry way more than he needs) but I can't see a single change of clothes working either - he gets wet on night one and he'll be miserable the whole time.

 

 

Lisabob, my son who is now 13, went on his first backpacking trip at age 10 and it was a great success, in no small part because of proper preparation. He's learned his lessons well, and has done close to 50 nights of camping in the past 3 years, so I think he's doing OK.

 

Probably the most effective learning lesson was when the SPL brought his fully loaded pack to a meeting one night, and proceeded to unpack it in front of the new scouts, explaining why each item was there. I still remember his explaining why wide-mouth Lexan waterbottles (Nalgenes) were better than canteens, and why he preferred a Lexan or polypropylene spoon and a bowl to a full mess kit.

 

The first gear lessons I remember being drilled into our heads were:

 

1) No cotton!

2) Lightweight layers (nylon, polyester or polypropylene), including a fleece pullover, and wicking long underwear (tops and bottoms),

3) Non-cotton sock liners and extra changes of socks (wool or wicking synthetic, not cotton)

4) Backpack properly fitted to the scout, whether external or internal frame (external frame often easier to adjust to fit) with a waterproof pack cover,

4) Well-fitting waterproof (Goretex) hiking boots, or boots treated with good quality waterproofing (Nikwax), and

5) Good quality, BREATHABLE raingear (tops and bottoms) with pants that can be zipped on and off over boots.

 

The hiking boots and breathable raingear, of course, are the priciest items, considering how fast boys outgrow their gear, but are critical to an inexperienced hiker's comfort in wet weather. (The boots need to fit, regardless). My son's troop has frequently been rained on, but they all have good, breathable raingear, so rain doesn't stop them from hiking in wet weather.

 

With good raingear, changes of clothing are less critical. A couple of short-sleeve shirts and a long-sleeve shirt for layering -- soccer shirts are good. Pants with zip-off legs, such as Switchbacks, allow for changes in temperature. Basketball-type "warmup" pants, expecially the flannel-lined ones, will make a decent layer if it's colder, with rainpants on top as a windblocking layer. You may or may not need a warmer outer jacket in case it's closer to 30 than to 50 -- the fleece pullover and rainjacket should be fine if it's nearer 50. A close-fitting hat like a stocking cap, for colder weather. Gloves if it's colder -- waterproof snowboarding gloves are good for wetter, colder weather. A change of gloves if it's wet. Pack a change of non-cotton pants, in case they get wet, but otherwise don't bother much with extra changes of clothing, 'cause the boys won't change anyway. They seem to pride themselves on who comes home the dirtiest! The one exception to this rule would be socks and sock liners -- even if they don't change any other clothes, they need to change their socks every day!

 

My son basically dresses in layers for the first day, and packs changes of socks and sock liners, and takes a change of pants, just in case, and he might throw in an extra fleece pullover if it's colder. Other than changing his socks, he'll pretty much wear the same clothes for the entire camping trip, layering on or off as the weather warrants. And he ALWAYS takes his raingear, even if there's no rain in the forecast.

 

Hope that's of some help.

[Gunny2862]

And remember that the ultra-light crowd has the not only the idea that things should be as light as possible but that you shouldn't carry things you won't use/don't need. The key is that everything should have a purpose and if possible more than one.

 

For instance if you are an ultra light packer, then you would be wearing/or under everything you brought when you go to sleep, except for the (nearly - I DO carry extra socks)empty pack, which might be your pillow or a pad under your feet. I've worn my rain jacket and trousers over my day wear instead of packing a sleeping bag before, although for this I did carry a 3/4 length pad and put my pack under my feet. A tarp or lean-to is an acceptable substitute for a tent if you know how to rig it under MOST conditions, if you even need it. Personally I DO carry at least a tarp, in case things go a little south(warmer/drier for sleeping, material for stretcher, cut and bind over wound covering to keep "Backcountry clean", etc).

 

When loading up, ask yourself if what you are about to carry is a comfort item or a necessity. For an overnighter or even a two night trip extra batteries are dead weight - just mark the old set put them aside and put a fresh set in. Pumping and sterilizing water is a WHOLE lot lighter than packing the last days water the first day.

 

It's amazing to me what boys who don't know will bring, even after classes on what and how to pack. Last time we had a boy show up for a fifteen-miler(by map) turned into 18 miles, with a FULL expedition pack, a carry bag and his pillow(full size) strapped to it. Needless to say, we had a special repacking session - went from over 70 lbs w/o crew gear down to about 38lbs crew gear included.

 

You may spend the money but generally you don't have to. Think lighter first - then spend the money after you've done what you can by eliminating the things you don't really need - most of the time you won't miss what you left behind and you can focus on spending your money where it will then do the most good.

[Joni4TA]

My son just went on a 3-day segmented 20 mile hike. He packed about 2 gallons of water (about 14 pounds right there - luckily there were 2 active springs on the hike), and the rest added up to the backpack being probably somewhere near 50 or 60 pounds pounds. He's 5'7" and weighs 187. He's not fat, he's a defensive lineman on the JV football team and a weight lifter. And he claims he did just fine with all his gear. In fact, he and the rest of the boys and the two leaders that went on the hike complained they had TOO MUCH FOOD, and wished they had left behind some of that food and water.

[Lisabob]

Joni,

 

Sounds like he had a good time, glad to hear it.

 

Yet that's exactly the sort of thing I admit I'm worrying about. A 50-60 pound pack would weigh more than half of what my son weighs!

Thanks for all the advice from everybody. I'm sharing your suggestions with my son and he will talk them over with his backpacking MBC too.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Learning what to take and what to leave takes a bit of experience. The first backpacking trips I took, I packed way, WAY too much stuff. Nothing loads a pack up more than a well meaning parent wandering through an REI looking at all the cool camp stuff.

 

Moms in particular (sorry moms, but its true) want their scouts to carry way too many extra clothes. How many pair of underwear do you need to take? Hint, one. And you are already wearing it. But what if I have an accident? Rinse them, put them back on. 11 days at Philmont and I had one pair.

 

How many socks? Two pair, and you are already wearing one set. Swap them daily, rinse out the old pair and hang to dry overnight.

 

Base layers? One. Thermal layer, one. Shell, one. Hat, one. Gloves, One pair. And you will probably be wearing all this when you start.

 

Sleeping clothes? A t-shirt and boxers or go commando in the bag.

 

So the only extra clothes in your pack is a pair of socks and your sleep clothes. No matter the length of the trek.

 

Toiletries? A toothbrush and share a tiny tube of paste with your crew. No deodorant, shampoo, razors. One roll of TP and a garden spade to share with the crew. A small towel can also be shared.

 

Mess kit is a cup, bowl and spork.

 

Now this may all sound pretty gross, and it is. Everybody pretty much smells the same after 3 days. You get used to it.

 

But another trick is to keep a bag of clean clothes and toiletries in the car to swap into after you get back. Helps on the drive back, especially if you need to keep the windows rolled up.

[Beavah]

Yah, hi Lisa'bob.

 

Sorry I didn't catch this thread right away.

 

Here's what most of the lads would do up here:

 

"Midweight" polypro base ("wicking") layer closest to skin. Tops and bottoms. Worn the whole time, pretty much.

 

Two fleece layers top, one fleece layer bottom. If he's a lean lad who gets easily chilled, make 'em thicker fleece or go up to 3.

 

Outer wind/rain shell (uninsulated) nylon. Waterproof/breathable is best. Unless it's very warm, this layer is always worn as the outer layer. Yeh adjust layers underneath it.

 

Warm hat, with neck gaiter. Or balaclava.

 

Wool/wool blend socks.

 

Liner gloves and ski gloves.

 

Appropriate boots.

 

That's it, eh? If it looks warmer, put in a pair of sports shorts (to wear if yeh don't need the poly bottoms).

 

No need for a second change of clothes, because if yeh have the synthetics they'll stay warm even when wet, and they dry _really_ fast. Key is to manage things so as not to sweat. So before hiking, yeh shed layers until you're cold (you'll warm up in the first 1/4 mile). When yeh stop for a break, you gradually add layers just ahead of being chilled.

 

By goin' light, he gets to be the strongest hiker, not tired, plenty of extra energy etc. And that makes for more fun and safety.

 

B