Axe or Hatchet?

[kenk]

In my son's young/small troop one older Scout has been the main instructor for Totin' Chip. This Scout brings his own hatchet (hand axe) as the troop doesn't have one.

 

Recently the SM announced that Scouts can bring their own hatchets if they want to. I asked if Scouts wanted training on use of longer axes (2 lb head size), and they seemed interested, but the SM voiced concern about safety, saying that the larger axe could do a lot of damage.

 

So, this leads to three questions:

 

#1: What does your troop use? An axe or a hatchet? When I was a kid we only used longer axes.

 

#2: Are there any brands/styles/models that are better for Scouts than any others? or do we get something cheap so they can beat them up without any concern?

 

#3: What are your thoughts of each Scout bringing their own? I see pluses & minues - much like the troop tent vs. personal tent thing.

[CalicoPenn]

In my opinion, without proper instruction in the use of an axe AND a hatchet (hand axe), Totin Chip training is incomplete. Part of learning how to safely use the tools is learning which tools to use for a particular situation.

 

You can't split logs with a hatchet (at least not safely) - and most people shouldn't use an axe to split kindling. The handle is too long and unless you have a lot of experience wielding an axe - it's just unsafe to do so.

 

There is also different handle lengths to consider (a 3/4 or a full) and different uses of an axe depending on it's head. A single-bit axe is (in the absence of a maul and wedge set or a splitting maul) better suited to splitting while a double-bit axe is better suited to chopping and limbing. Yes - you can do all three tasks with either type of axe, and it's done all the time when you can only have one axe with you (If I could only choose one, my preference would be a double-bit - but that's a personal preference)but it's not the ideal (its like a carpenter using a roofing hammer for framing - you can do so, but it isn't ideal).

 

I would try to encourage the Troop to re-tool (sorry un-intended pun) its Totin Chip instruction to make sure that axe use is covered as well as hatchet use.

 

In my troop we used all three types of axes - the single-bit, the double-bit and the hand axe (hatchet), and both sizes of axes. The troop owned the equipment and Scouts were never to bring their own with them to campouts. Axes were never allowed in a Scouts tent - when not in use, they stayed in the equipment tent or in the leader's tent.

 

As an aside to demonstrate the reason why Scouts shouldn't have axes in their tents - at a camporee, when my Explorer Post was serving as emergency services (security, first aid, fire watch, etc.), we were called to one of the units camp sites at about 3am to provide first aid for a Scout who hurt himself with an axe. One of his unit leaders told a scary story at the units campfire after the camporee campfire and the Scout got scared and brought an axe to bed with him "just in case". The Scout eventually fell asleep and in the middle of the night, rolled over onto the axe head. The resulting cut didn't require stitches but because it was about 3 to 4 inches long, it produced a bit of blood and really scared the heck out of the lad and his leaders.

 

I have no opinion on brand names - a good axe can be found at the local hardware store. I strongly suggest that only axes and hand axes with wooden handles be used. Fiberglass and metal handles just don't absorb the shock of axe head connecting with log as a wooden handle does and the more shock the handle absorbs, the less shock is transfered to the Scouts arms and shoulders.

 

Since the troop is young, you might also want to start out with a 3/4 axe (this refers to length of handle, not size of head as some think) knowing that eventually you'll need a full size axe. Again, this is a safety consideration. A 3/4 axe will be safer for younger Scouts to use - the handle is of a size that isn't overwhelming like a full size axe might be. At some point, as they get taller, the older Scouts (and adults) will find the 3/4 axe is a bit short which now makes it less safe (not unsafe - just less safe)to use and a full size axe will be a better fit for them.

 

I would be very concerned about letting each Scout bring their own hand axe. It really isn't necessary for a unit to have more than one or two on a trip, and Scouts tend to want to use what they bring along - if they're all bringing hand axes along, what will they use them on? Most likely, the trees surrounding your camp site. Better to make axes and hand axes troop equipment.

 

A hatchet can do as much damage as an axe - about the only difference is an axe head may be more likely to break some bones in a foot if it's dropped than a hatchet just because of sheer weight. The counter to this argument, I think, is that using a tool for a purpose it's not intended is far more dangerous. If you have to split some logs, or even chop apart a good size branch to fire size pieces, an axe is far more safer to use than a hatchet.

 

Calico

 

 

[scottteng]

The larger axes are actually safer because the scouts must use two hands on them. The small hand axes are more portable but are one handed. Scout age boys are still developing the motor skills needed to use the one handed implements. The two handed swing gives much better control. We here would all much rather let em rip with the Boy axe (aka 3/4) with a roped off axe yard and appropriate eye protection. We have some scoutmasters in our district that allow no hatchets whatsoever.

[insanescouter]

Ok this topic always opens a can of worms with me... I am over trained in the use of "wood tools". I have been trained by many organizations including the National Park Service, National Foest Service, Americorps*NCCC, etc for Trail Crew work, Trail Crew Quatermaster, and as a NCCC team quatermaster.

 

Any first let me make this clean and VERY clear ... every tool has a purpose and when use for that purpose in the RIGHT way is safe. The size of the tool makes NO differences, it is the way we are taught to use it.

 

Next, a HAND AX and a Hatchet are totally different tools. I wish people would stop refering to them together. A hand as looks like a small version of a full size ax or a three-quarter ax. The hatchet is designed mostly for splitting wood wood that is already quartered, has a bigger & thicker head, a bigger butt (the back end most people use incorrectly as hammer and wonder why they get cut) and most distinctive feature is a BIG "V" (not the little nail removing "v" most hand ax's have - this "v" is much bigger).

 

The hand ax is meant for smaller work, similar to what a full size ax is used for. An no, no "hand" size ax or hatched would be any good or safe to use on large wood, they are not designed for that.

 

Keep in mind last time I checked a double bladed ax is not allowed in Scouting, check recent copy of guide to safe scouting to see if this rule still exists.

 

A general way to tell if a Scout can handle the full size ax is have them hold it by the head (not the blade) straight out and do a blood circle. If they have the strength to do that smoothly then they have the strength to use it. That, however, does not mean they have the mental age to do so.

 

Some other things to note always keep your blades clean and sharp. Also inspect the tools before every outing, to ensure they are still in good shape.

 

Make sure you don't just have the Scouts read about the safety and then give them the totin' chip card. Part of the requirments (at least last time I checked) is to "Demonstrate" your ability to use the tools. Thus the Troop I work with the Scouts at the end of the course are asked to enter the ax yard one at a time and are asked to demonstrate using the tool. The instructor is on hand and helps the Scout with safety concerns, handling, posture, etc. This usually takes about 5 mins per scout. Later in the day or the next day they usually have time to work with the tools more to become more comfortable with them.

 

As the California Conservation Corps saying goes "Safety First, Safety Always", forget that and bad things happen. Minimize the risk don't become paranoid over it.

 

I would not recommend it as good idea that any Scout posses their own Ax of any size. This should be Troop / Group equipment only.

 

Please feel free to ask me anything you may want to know about any outdoor hand tools, I know about many of them. Such as did you know most shovels need to be sharpened.

 

Please take a look at the "wood tools course" I developed at http://insanescouter.com/t276/files/wood_tools.html. Yes I know this document is a bit dated now for example it says BSA does not allow us to have knives bigger then 4 inches, which is no longer the case.

 

I guess as you can tell I for the most part, at least, agree with CalicoPenn ...

 

Hope my wacky 2 cents is found helpful...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[scottteng]

In keeping with current leave no trace guideline which do not permit cutting of live wood what is a hatchet actually best at. Boys being boys they want to drag into camp an enormous trunk of a dead fallen tree which will need to be chopped up with an axe before use. Most of the smaller twigs can be broken easily because they must be dead and dry. We show em how to make a fuzz stick once but the preferred fire starter is monkey fuzz. If a 2"-3" branch is too hard to break it can more efficiently be portioned by a bow saw. We have campgrounds that we go to that they let people come in and drop off wood. This wood usually needs to be split as it is sawed into logs for transport. In my admittedly misspent youth I had a hatchet its purpose was to cut limbs from trees that were in my way as I made my way through the woods

[local1400]

Axes and hatchets should be troop equipment. Each has a specific job so both should be used and taught how to be used properly. I prefer Snow and Nealley brand tools. Their website claims they no longer accept orders online but can give you info on how and where to purchase them. Expensive, but a lifetime investment. Handmade in Bangor, Maine (USA!) since the late 1800's. I love my kindling axe. You get what you pay for. I once received one of those Wal-Mart type all metal hatchets. I think it lasted me two months.Edited Part: Just checked the website and found retailers located in many locations of several different states I clicked on. Also available through L.L. Bean. Happy Chopping!(This message has been edited by local1400)

[insanescouter]

The tools do all have purposes and the Scouts should know how to use them regardless of where you are located. However if you live in middle of a barren sand pit dessert like I do, the chances the Scouts have to really use wood tools is much lower then some one in say a wooded area I bet. The same is true with open fire. About 3 month out of the year it seems anymore fires are allowed in my area, do to fire danger levels. No matter we go, we have to bring in out own wood, and the boys know that is all they are allowed to use or cut.

 

Give you an example why we enforce this rule, only wood we bring ... about 8 years ago a local troop was camping at the local mountain which has strict rules about trees, wood, fires, etc ... they decided to cut down something like 5 living trees. The forest service found out and the unit was fined something like $5,000 per tree. I never heard if they worked out a settlement or the parents end up paying for it or what. No matter how would have you liked to be in that mess?

 

There are at rare times real reasons to cut down living trees. For paul buyan award we helped the local scout camp clear out some bug infested trees that the camp and the forest service said had to go. No matter always make sure you have permission of the owner of the land and any required permits. In our case we set it up in advance as a service project with the council and the camp ranger.

 

No matter its like anything ... you let the kids see something but don't properly introduce them to it eventually their curiosity will get the better of them - that will often lead to serious consequences when it comes to wood tools!

 

Teach the scouts to use all the tools properly, let them use them in a safe controlled environment, when not in use make sure they are secure in a car or some kind of locked box. If these tools are not used as they are meant to be they DO become and in all reality are weapons.

 

Just my wacky 2 cents ...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

 

 

[SSScout]

Easland makes excellent hand axes and rock hammers and other special hand tools. Head and handle are forged in one piece n their line. I still have and use the hatchet I was given as a Scout and now my First Classer is using it.

 

Doesn't Totin'Chip require knowledge and safe use of knife, axe and saw? We teach all three and see that the boys are knowledgeable with bow, pruning and crosscut saws.

 

After instruction and practice, Scout must produce a really finely made tent peg, at least 12" long with his hatchet or hand axe to pass his T/C. Good point, wings on the notch, chamfered striking top edges, etc. (lots of etc.!)

[rkfrance]

Our troop has a splitting axe for chopping and splitting. We also have a bow saw which is almost never used.

 

The axe is a composite material that can be run over by a truck and not break (not recommending to try). The brand is Fiskars. It comes with a carrying sheath/handle.

 

I've been looking at hatchets but opted against them for weight (each boy/backpacking). Instead we found lock-blade folding saws w/ 8" blade. Lightweight, compact and small enough to drop in side pocket of a backpack. My youngest son is the smallest boy in our troop. He really preferred the lock-blade saw to our bow saw.

 

Fiskars also makes these saws, but I thought there was too much play in the blade when it was locked open. We opted for a generic brand that was $2 less, but firmly locked when open. We showed it to another local troop at summer camp. They were really excited by it and mentioned they would have to get a few.

 

Check out Sears, Lowes, Meijer, or Target for these brands. That allows you to check out the product a little better than ordering online or from a catalog.