Sheath Knife Tolerance

[kenk]

I had to smile when one of my distict execs brought a small sheath knife to tonight's roundtable to help cut up meat used as part of a dutch oven demonstration. He even smiled and sort of apologized while admiting that they were "forbidden". I quickly pointed out that they are NOT forbidden at all.

 

I'm not one of those people who thinks Scout leaders are nuts when they forbid sheath knives ...

 

But, one of my personal goals in the next few years is to try to get my Council to lighten up on the "sheath knives are stupid" and/or "sheath knives are forbidden" montras (actual statements made by my council execs over the years), and recognize that fixed blade knives indeed have a place in Scouting, especially when it comes to food preparation and some limited survival techniques.

 

My own recommendation would be to allow small and medium length blades (maybe less than 5 or 6") and require they be carried in rigid containers (frame packs, kitchen boxes, etc....) but not carried on belts or in small bags(to avoid sheath failure during falls).

 

As most of you know, the official GTSS statement is simply to "avoid large sheath knives". Even the GTSS admits that a large sheath knife is good for "cleaning fish". They are much better than pocketknives for most food preparation. I'm not sure how this "avoid" language evolved into to "forbid" language.

 

I myself feel the best combination is a BSA pocketknife in my pocket for the vast majority of cutting needs, and a small sheath knife in my pack (actually in my kitchen gear).

[Proud Eagle]

In my council sheath knives are forbiden on all council properties by council created policies. There is no law against sheath knives, but the council decided that you must agree to not bring a sheath knife to be allowed on/in any council property.

[kenk]

My council camps also forbid sheath knives.

 

Do your patrols include fixed blade knives in their patrol kitchen gear? My guess is that most do.

 

If so, then fixed blade knives WITHOUT sheaths are OK?

 

If the kitchen knives are in sheaths, then are they forbiden?

 

I'm REALLY not trying to get into a battle of words. I'm really not a very radical person and the first to tell people that if the rules say something isn't allow, then it isn't allowed.

 

I'm just trying to understand what exactly the councils' intensions are.

 

Do they not want boys to carry fixed blade knives in sheaths on their belts? That I can understand.

 

Do they not want boys/patrols to bring fixed blade knives to camp at all? Are kitchen knives forbidden during backpacking too?

 

Do they want to limit fixed blade knives to appropriate tasks, such as filleting fish or other food preparation? Could a boy bring a fillet knife along in their fishing gear? Even GTSS admits a sheath knife is good for filleting fish.

 

My thought is that there is a time & place for the carrying/use of a fixed blade knife (whether stored in a sheath or not) even in council campgrounds. Its usually associated with food preparation or survival skills.

 

I also think that the current batch of council leaders have been so indoctrinated with the "Sheath knives are forbidden" & "Sheath knives are stupid" thinkspeak that they are ignoring the realities. I suspect that most would even admit that sheath knives are OK in the right situation, but the are under tremendous pressure to characterize sheath knives as forbidden or stupid.

[Vicki]

Well, OK, folks, thanks! One more question to ask before summer camp - my son just got "kitted out" for fishing, including a 6" filleting knife, sheathed securely with his tackle. I know our troop doesn't have a problem (several Scouts can't WAIT for a Boundary Waters year to roll around). But I don't know about our council summer camp.

 

I'm known as kind of anal-retentive as it is, they'll love this one!

 

Vicki (heading off to my second summer camp!)

[Lynda J]

Boys are not allowed to carry sheath knives in our council. Yes we do have "fixed blade" knives in our chuck boxes. They are used when cooking only.

The boys are not carried then on hikes or to activities.

I have personally seen sheath knives cut through the case and cut the person that was carrying it.

Took 28 stitches to sew my dad up. His knife was in a leather sheath, he fell and it cut through and cut his leg as he fell down the hill. Dr. said he was lucky it didn't stab him or he could have died.

 

[Vicki]

In our council I'm told they are tolerated if they are stored in tackle boxes. Of course, a cooking knife in a patrol box is OK.

 

Vicki

[kenk]

Wow, you are getting very close to my idea for sheath knife tolerance!!!

 

My original post suggested tolerance of reasonably-sized sheath knives that are carried in rigid containers (kitchen boxes, tackle boxes, ...) or larger packs (backpacks, larger duffles), with the emphasis that they not be carried on the belt, in pockets, or in small fanny/shoulder bags.

[polarbear]

Hey y'all,

I'm new here (my first post) but I've been in scouting for about 15 years. It seems like this "golden rule" is more about keeping evil sheath knives out of the boy's hands.

On the other hand, I've seen the results of improper axe handling and the same with saws... Not a pretty sight. If all that we are worried about is sheath failure, Kydex is really tough stuff.

Just my two cents worth.

 

Ron

[evmori]

The BSA doesn't ban them, but a lot of councils do. Mine does.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[willysjeep]

I always find it funny that the BSA endorsed sheath knives for a while. You could get a 4.5 inch Marbles Woodcraft with an official BSA logo on the blade and sheath. Now they are trying very hard, I think, to look politically correct.

 

I think this zero tolerance idea is supported by the lack of sheath knife safety in totin' chip any more. I figure that scouting should prepare you for life. Even if you don't need a sheath knife for scouting, you might need one later, and I think it would do everybody some good to learn how to safely use one. It would also help to dispell the idea of a nation wide zero tolerance policy. That's my personal dream, but I know changing the status quo is difficult, so I don't make too big of a deal about it.

 

 

[anarchist]

I carry two sheath Knives depending on what I am doing and my tackle box generally has at least two more filet knives (4&6/7inches). For Most campouts I carry a small kabar or Buck knife either are no longer than 7 inches with three inch blades...they are wonderful. On river trip I carry on my PFD a Kershaw river rescue knife lashed to my PFD- 71/2inch total length with 3 1/2 inch double edged blade,one side serated for cutting straps and ropes. Both the Buck and the Kershaw are in "plastic composite sheaths...the old tiny Kbar is my "favorite" and doubles as my 'deer' dressing knife every fall.

 

Last fall we camp along side a troop where every scout (at the the ones we kept meeting) carried large USMC Kabar combat knives...even when they were hosting their families in the camp shelters...they were having a cook out and the scouts were all decked out in the finest cutlery...sort of looked humorous...those suckers looked to be 14 inches long...

 

sheath knives have a place in camping thats for sure and are very worthwhile for white water canoeing... in my book anyway

 

anarchist

[Mike F]

In my son's troop, you have to be 1st Class to carry a sheath knife and the boy's know that right will be revoked at the first hint of misuse. In 13 years, no scout has lost the right to carry and use his sheath knife. It is worth noting, in those 13 years, we've never had a significant injury from sheath knives, but we certainly cannot say the same for folding knives, axes, and saws.

 

The expectations are high and the boys meet them consistently.

 

It does draw some wide-eyes and sputtering comments from other scout leaders who don't understand the rules.

 

-mike

[yellow_hammer]

On pioneering projects where you are doing a lot of rope cutting it can be very tiresome to cut, fold pocketknife properly with both hands, lash, take pocketknife out of pocket and open with both hands, cut...

 

The process is much easier with a sheath knife that doesn't require both hands to put away.

 

BSA doesn't forbid sheath knives but they don't encourage them either.

[Beavah]

We should teach the boys to use da right tool for the job, eh? That's what is really meant by safety. The number of injuries from non-locking folding-blade knives is way higher than from sheath knives. And there are plenty of perfectly safe sheaths for carrying fixed bladed knives in.

 

Thanks, anarchist, I hadn't even thought about river rescue knives. I carry one all the time, as should anyone who uses rescue ropes in water situations, at least in movin' water.

[Vicki]

Well, and as long as we're talking water situations, I carry a calf sheath and knife when I go scuba diving - especially in lakes. Never know when you're going to have to cut your way out of a nest of fishing line. Without a knife, drowning is a very real possibility.

 

Vicki