Safety Afloat interpretation

[NC Scouter]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Our troop has been planning an offshore, ocean fishing trip for this month using commercial sport fishing charter boats. The boats carry 8 people each, including the captain and mate.

 

A couple of adults have reviewed the Safety Afloat requirements and are saying that we must have two adults per boat trained in Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense. That would mean four scouts per boat, plus the captain, mate, and the two trained adults.

 

We are a relatively large troop, and based on preliminary sign ups we would need 14 trained adults based on the most strict reading of the requirements (two adults for every four scouts). We happily have enough adults planning to attend to meet that standard, but it will not be easy to get all of them registered and trained.

 

In my opinion the Safety Afloat rules make no appropriate distinction between private craft and commercial vessels of this size. My interpretation would be that even a single trained adult could validate that the commercial captains are in compliance with Safety Afloat requirements.

 

How do you and your districts and councils interpret these rules?

 

Thank you for your input.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Reference: Safety Afloat, No. 34368 and in the Online Learning Center

 

 

 

 

"All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each 10 people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older."

 

Bold is mine for emphasis.

 

So we now know how many have to be with the boys. It does not sound like you have to have 2 per boat, Not even one per boat actually. The crew of the boat qualify , so you could get by with only one leader for the whole group. Not that i think you will have a problem getting laders or adults there!

 

 

 

"Safety Afloat

BSA groups shall use Safety Afloat for all boating activities. Adult leaders supervising activities afloat must have completed Safety Afloat training within the previous two years. Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council or district events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions). Safety Afloat standards apply to the use of canoes, kayaks, rowboats, rafts, floating tubes, sailboats, motorboats (including waterskiing), and other small craft, but do not apply to transportation on large commercial vessels such as ferries and cruise ships."

 

What you have to determine is , that since the boats are commercial craft, what rules apply.

 

So, call your DE and ask him.

 

 

[qwazse]

Sounds fun!

It all depends on captain's qualifications. He should be licensed ans properly trained for water rescue. If so, you already have one adult per boat. I don't think you want to go below one adult from the troop per boat.

[NC Scouter]

Thanks for your replies.

 

After sleeping on this and looking carefully at the requirements again this morning I think the interpretation hinges on how the word "group" is defined.

 

To exaggerate for emphasis, if BSA intended for group to be defined as the number of people in a single boat and two trained supervisors are required for every boat, then canoe trips would be impossible or at least very different!

 

So while I agree that the requirement is one trained leader for every 10 participants (we'll need five, which we have already), I don't agree that the professional boat crews count. I think our trained supervisors are responsible for reasonably assuring that BSA Safety Afloat standards are observed.

 

One other point -- the content of the Safety Afloat web page differs from the Safety Afloat section of the G2SS. My understanding is that the current G2SS always prevails over any conflicting information.

[qwazse]

The information on the web represents current standards. You would have to check the references of each to see if one was updated after the other.

 

A lot of it also depends on how used your boys are to open ocean activities, their level of discipline, how closely the boat captains work together, and your general comfort level with things.

 

You get a half-dozen captains who each have a different favorite location miles apart, then you're gonna want every adult on top of things and trained to the max.

 

You get a good flotilla of captains who coordinate their trips, keep the radio on, and keep you in the loop, then more of your adults can just be along for the ride.

 

You got a disciplined and skilled patrol of older boys? I don't see a problem with them spending the day on a boat to themselves if one of your adults is going to be in a boat nearby.

 

By the way, this is just me talking. Not representing council or district. The last thing I'd ever do is ask them for a rule on something. I read the guidelines and apply common sense and a good bit of judgement.

[Oak Tree]

You definitely don't need two adults per boat as a general rule. You don't even need one adult per boat. As you point out, canoe trips would be difficult.

 

I do think that the professionals would count as supervision, although it isn't 100% clear from the wording. Not that this is an issue for you, but my argument would be:

 

1. The G2SS says Additional leadership is provided in ratios of one trained adult, staff member, or guide per 10 participants. Bold emphasis is mine. When you are talking about professional commercial guides, I don't think you'd expect them to be trained in the BSA program. You do want them to be fully trained for whatever their position is.

 

2. The G2SS also says at the beginning of the aquatics section activities are supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who Understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in his or her care Is experienced in the particular activity Is confident in his or her ability to respond appropriately in an emergency Is trained and committed to the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat and/or the eight points of Safe Swim Defense. Unit leadership that accompanies the unit on an outing is always responsible for the first and last bulleted points above. However, under appropriate circumstances, the unit leader may delegate responsibility to trained individuals within the unit or to on-site professionals for the second and third bulleted points above. For example, a Scout troop at a water park with trained lifeguards on duty need not assign separate unit personnel to perform water rescue. A Venturing crew on a whitewater excursion may rely on a licensed outfitter to provide the necessary equipment and trained guides.So again, I think you are ok by the rules if you count the outfitter. You'll need to decide for yourself what is appropriate in this case. I think I'd still have at least one adult per boat.

[Beavah]

Yah, hello NC Scouter.

 

So each charter has a captain and a mate? Then I reckon yeh only want and need one adult from your program on each boat. Or yeh can just ask the captain or the mate to take the online SA training. Expect that you'll have to buy 'em a round.

 

From a practical point of view, though, two experienced seamen who are skilled at runnin' charters for novices definitely do meet the qualified supervision requirements for SA. The reason to have one of your adults around is for fun and takin' pictures, or to manage any behavioral issue from one of the boys that needs someone with more time with the lad.

 

Now, a friendly word of advice to let yeh know that your 20-minute online training does not trump the experience or training of two experienced seamen on their own vessel. It's the other way around, eh? Their experience with deep-sea fishing trumps your limited training in Safety Afloat. The BSA's interest in requirin' SA is to make sure that someone knows the minimums when operating without experienced guides, or knows how to recognize experienced guides. After yeh have contracted with an experienced commercial outfitter, Safety Afloat yields to their experience and the laws and regulations that apply to their charter.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

What Beavah said. The way I view SA, etc. is that if YOU decide to take the troop out on YOUR watercraft, you must meet those requirements. But if you charter a commercial outfit to provide those services, what you really need to do is make sure that commercial outfit has the expertise, experience, resources, and liability coverage that they should have - before you contract with them. If they do, then you just need to keep the camera ready, hopefully the frying pan as well.

[eisely]

I concur with Beavah. If I am not mistaken, the master of the vessel also has to be individually licensed by the Coast Guard.

[CalicoPenn]

100% with Beavah on what trumps what when you're on that excursion.

 

But - even though the Captains will trump the BSA, that doesn't mean you can ignore BSA policy - and I sincerely doubt the BSA would look at a charter fishing boat as being equivalent in any way to a ferry or cruise ship - so what is your responsibility?

 

Neither Safety Afloat nor the G2SS say anything about needing 2 adults on every boat - someone is misreading what it does say.

 

What it does say, in a rather convoluted way, is that for any one group you need 1 supervisor trained in safety afloat and safe swim defense (and all the "willing to take responsibility" stuff) for every 10 people in the group, with at least 2 supervisors per group regardless of size, as long as one of the supervisors is at least 21 with the rest being at least 18.

 

So what does that mean? First, it says group, not boat - if you have 40 people in your "group" taking a rafting trip and 20 people go in the morning and 20 people go in the afternoon, you have TWO groups - a morning group and an afternoon group - if all 40 go in the morning at the same time you have ONE group.

 

Second, it says at least 2 supervisors regardless of group size but 1 supervisor per 10 people so a group of 20 or less would need 2 supervisors and a group of 8 would also need 2 supervisors.

 

So what does that mean for you? Well, if I did my math right, you have at least 28 boys signed up to go - if each boat holds 8, including the captain and mate, you'll have 6 boats going out (figuring at least one adult from your troop on each boat). If all 6 boats are leaving the docks at about the same time, you have ONE group. With 28 boys, and presumably at least 6 adults, you have 34 people (not including the Captains and Mate - they aren't your responsibility). 34 people? You need 4 supervisors (I would read it as rounding up, not down) trained in safety afloat and safe swim defense. You don't need 2 per boat, or even 1 per boat - just as long as you have 1 for every 10 people.

 

[sailingpj]

Also don't forget to talk to the captains. I worked on a charter boat for a few years. We would have required that there was at least one adult there to supervise the scouts on each boat.

[Papadaddy]

Tread lightly. If I were a USCG licensed Master licensed to carry commercial passengers and someone asked me to take BSA online training, I would escort them off my boat...head first!

[sailingpj]

^^That is very likely to happen.

 

Also, don't expect to be within shouting distance of the other boats. When you get that close lines start tangling, plus each captain will have their own spots that they fish at.

[DLChris71]

With a group that big why not just go with one of the larger party boats?

[acco40]

Use common sense. At our annual Eagle Recognition dinner - held at a banquet facility - they do not have separate rest rooms for adults or youth. When I took the ferry to North Manitou Island, none of the boys were wearing PFDs.

 

I'm not going to grill the professionals working on the ferry to check their qualifications. I am going to counsel the boys on proper behavior and monitor their actions while on-board the ship.