Why no Tarps

[Basementdweller]

30 years ago when I went to Philmont we sleep under three dinning flies.....Two for the the scouts one for the adults..... Reading a friends trek guide they now say no Tarps, everyone has to sleep in a tent..... I have a silnylon tarp and it weights 12 ounces with stakes 14.

 

My question is why?

 

Bear safety? Look of a clean campsite?

 

I am looking to cut weight....as a youth there was no shake down, Just before I got on the bus to head to poneil, with food and water my pack weighed 52 pounds......I am looking for a 18 pound or less base weight. I expect 24 with consumables.

[EagleBeaver]

In 2005, Philmont mentioned hantavirus as a reason - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002358/

 

We were specifically told not to sleep in the 'lost cabin' because many mice habitated there.

 

Scout On

[Oak Tree]

I've heard this explained.

 

My recollection is that people find it too convenient to cook under tarps and the tarps end up smelling like food, which then attracts bears.

 

I also think that for Leave No Trace purposes, they don't want you to tie ropes to things, as constantly repeated actions of that nature can wear away the bark from trees. Is your tarp free-standing?

[Papadaddy]

My first thought was Youth Protection. Not much privacy under a tarp.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Based on the responses, I can only assume that most here are less than familiar with backpacking shelter tarps. Basically, these are more like a "shell," staked directly to the ground and suspended with one or two hiking poles. Sometimes one point may be tied to a tree, but an occational tieout to a tree is a fraction the impact of repeatedly pitching tents with floors on the ground. I just don't buy the LNT argument. As far as mice go, hantavirus is not spread by contact with mice but by contact infected mice excrement. Site selection can reduce the odds of this just like site selection can keep your tent dry.

[shortridge]

Skipper - I've heard those called "fastpitch footprints." There's a tarp cut to fit overtop of tent poles, which hook into a groundcloth on the bottom. It all stakes down just like a freestanding tent, only without sides, in essence.

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, sorry if I came across as uninformed. People mean all kinds of things by 'tarp'.

 

Found the reference: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=38350 It is a bear safety issue. Since the tarp is used to cook under in poor weather, the smell of food and possible spilled food will be under it. Even if your crew never used the tarp to cook under, bears will learn from other crews who were not so neat that food may exist under the tarp and come investigate. For this safety reason, Philmont has the rule that sleeping under a tarp (dining or personal) is not allowed. A tent is required.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this being a "bear safety issue." The tarp itself is not a bear safety issue, but how the scout chooses to use it may be. How does one cook in inclement weather if they have a small backpack tent? And how would camping in a tarp mean that one could (or should!) not follow similar procedures? In other words, for the sake of bear safety, NO ONE should cook at their sleeping site, whether that is a tarp, tent, hammock, or hard shelter. Weather does not change this as an issue of safety.

 

Again, I consider this an issue of ignorance. Safety is safety, and rules are rules. In this case the equipment compromises neither safety nor LNT, so long as the safe practices are followed.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Here are some photo examples of tarps and tarptents:

 

[Oak Tree]

At some point it can be hard to tell the difference between a "tarp" and a "tent". It is a bit difficult to understand Philmont's reasoning on this, I agree.

 

From the given reason, one could also argue that tents shouldn't have vestibules, because sometimes people cook in their vestibule during inclement weather.

 

Now, if they have some evidence to back up the rule, then I'd be happy to listen. Do they regularly have bears wandering into camp and checking out tarps but leaving tents alone? How does a bear tell the difference between a tarp and a tent? Is it that a tarp is open at the ends? (Personally, this is the annoying thing about tarps - it eliminates privacy and allows wind-blown rain in.)

 

What if you bring a tent fly? How is that different from a tarp? I'd just be curious to hear how they define tarp vs tent. How about the Six Moons Designs Lunar Solo?

[Buffalo Skipper]

Oak Tree, yes I agree. The rule is confusing, and does not appear to be based in fact. I am not promoting an anarchistic approach to Philmont's rules, but I try to teach scouts to be logical and reason things out. Whenever possible, I don't set down a rule, but instead try to guide the scout to making a "good" decision.

 

I am also trying to promote a more lightweight approach with our scouts as they gain experience. A scout who wants to take a 25 oz tarp or tarptent rather than a 5 lb solo tent is likely to be much more confident in his abilities. And a scout carrying an 20 lb backpack is much more likely to enjoy his backcountry experience than a scout carrying a 20 lb pack.

 

Sorry if I came across as ranting in my earlier responses.

[FScouter]

The 2011 planning guide doesn't say anything about tents being required, nor that sleeping under a dining fly is not permitted.

http://philmontscoutranch.org/filestore/Philmont/pdf/2011CouncilUnitPlanningGuide.pdf

[Buffalo Skipper]

But hammocks are prohibited.

[Oak Tree]

The planning guide does not cover all of the rules at Philmont. Troops receive significant additional information. I don't know whether the issue is mentioned or not, but absence from the planning guide is not much evidence in favor the policy. The planning guide does specifically list "tents" as crew gear.

[Engineer61]

Do they have West Nile Virus? We have in AZ now....