moxieman Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I can't find this in the online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting or the Safety Afloat info. A unit in our district was denied a tour permit to do a three day canoe trip. They were told they need a BSA Lifeguard. Several leaders have completed Safety Afloat and a few also have current CPR. Is a lifeguard now required or is someone in our council office interpreting requirements for Safety Afloat/canoe trips in their own way? If this is a change, I'd like to pass it on through our email distribution system...but I'd also like to be able to point to the documentation that states this. If it has NOT changed, I'll direct the unit to point the person at Council to the online Guide to Safe Scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Aquatics/safety-afloat.aspx "It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat." Last I checked, "strongly recommended" is not the same as "required." But the language may have changed since this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtswestark Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Are you sure that was the only reason it was denied? Did they appeal it up to a higher authority? If so, that's a deal killer for many scouting events. I'd be raising some serious waves over that denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Don't see that and I'd ask the person denying that to show you where it is required. Now it does say BSA groups shall use Safety Afloat for all boating activities. Adult leaders supervising activities afloat must have completed Safety Afloat training within the previous two years. i no longer see the recommendation for a BSA Lifeguard in G2SS for SA, probbaly becasue BSA Lifeguard has done away with boating altogether and now mirrors ARC, but it does say It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained in BSA Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Craft Safety to assist in the planning and conduct of all activities afloat. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx#i SOOOO if they are still giving you a hard time, a call to you DE may be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Pretty sure that actual on water trips, not just paddling around, have had that requirement for a long time. It has kept us from doing some activities due to not having one. They usually will accept a similarly certified person, such as YMCA or other such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxieman Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 Thanks for your quick responses. I've forwarded the link from the National site on Safety Afloat and recommended to the unit leader that if the "lifeguard required" issue is the only thing preventing the tour permit, he should challenge it. Our DE was included in the original message sent to me and I kept him in the loop in the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Considering that certified lifeguards are not required for Safe Swim Defense, Lifesaving MB was all that was needed at one time, I don't know how they can require a lifeguard for afloat trip. ( And I noticed they are now called "RESPONSE PERSONNEL") From the G2SS under Safe Swim Defense Response Personnel (Lifeguards) Every swimming activity must be closely and continuously monitored by a trained rescue team on the alert for and ready to respond during emergencies. Professionally trained lifeguards satisfy this need when provided by a regulated facility or tour operator. When lifeguards are not provided by others, the adult supervisor must assign at least two rescue personnel, with additional numbers to maintain a ratio of one rescuer to every 10 participants. The supervisor must provide instruction and rescue equipment and assign areas of responsibility as outlined in Aquatics Supervision, No. 34346. The qualified supervisor, the designated response personnel, and the lookout work together as a safety team. An emergency action plan should be formulated and shared with participants as appropriate. Now what I want to know is, when did they start requiring life jackets in clear water over 12 feet, and murky water over 8 feet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank17 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I just had one approved last month for Canoing and did not have BSA lifeguards listed. The reposnible adults did have valid Safery Afloat / SSD, and I also had First aid / CPR, but that was it. May be different council by council, or they may have missed on mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 moxieman It sure looks like your council is reinterpreting the rules National has put out in print, no the lifeguard is NOT required. My crew has done rafting and canoeing and kayaking for years now and we have never had a lifeguard present, besides there are several teens and adults in the crew that are better trained in aquatic activities than what the BSA Lifeguard gets trained in. Fight this all the way cuz your council is just plain WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hello BadenP I've been told you have to have a qualified Lifeguard for swimming at a council Scout Camp. Perhaps some councils have more restrictive regulations. This might be an effective way to reduce the number of water related outing by BSA units which account for disproportionate number of casualties, and likely lawsuits. Perhaps this could be regarded as part of a council economy drive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 SP A council scout camp is an entirely different situation from a unit outing to a river, etc., National explicitly states in its pubs a lifeguard is recommended NOT REQUIRED. moxies council can NOT deny a tour permit on this basis since it conflicts with Nationals published one. Besides as I already stated my crew has 2 former county lifeguards, and one of the adults is an ex Navy seal, the BSA lifeguard training is a mere "piss in the ocean" by comparision, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Quick, somebody remind me, youth can read what is posted in the forums, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Some can, I suppose. I was at an elementary school yesterday looking for 5th and 6th graders interested in Boy Scouts. Those interested I asked to write their name and phone number on a 3x5 card so I could have a troop call them. Most seemed to be able to write their name, but remembering a phone number was a difficult proposition for quite a few. I pitched the boys by asking "who is interested in going hiking and camping?" Quite a few raised their hands. "How many are more interested in going hiking and camping than staying home and playing video games?" A LOT fewer hands up when that screening question was asked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 BP, While I agree with you on the current BSA Lifeguard training, I can tell you that the old training WAS the hardest program out of ARC and YMCA, b/c it also emphasized boating skills. I hate to say it, but there are folks who FAILED BSA Lifeguard, for some minor reasons, that I would trust my life to than some of the lifeguards that I have helped train and certify (don't ask, I was overruled in the decisions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Most Boy Scout-age youth that I know use far coarser language than that, alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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