Tour Permits

[rraffalo]

I have a question that I cannot find the answer to anywhere. With regard to tour permits:

 

Has anyone had a situation where part of a high adventure crew was going to be out of town (away from their home base where the troop meets weekly)? In my particular situation, 2 of the 8 people going to Sea Base are going to be in Connecticut the day before the trip begins, and our troop is based in Illinois. The question is: can the DEPARTURE point for the trip, which is required on the tour permit, be in Fort Lauderdale, Florida? Here is the rationale: It makes sense that as long as we are not flying as scouts that we all meet in Fort Lauderdale (the 6 crew members in Illinois fly to Fort Lauderdale from Illinois, and the 2 crew members in Connecticut fly to Fort Lauderdale from Connecticut) and then the official scout trip begins. There is still a 2.5 hour drive from Fort Lauderdale to Sea Base High Adventure Camp. Two deep Leadership and Youth Protection are not issues here. But, do the Connecticut crew members have to fly to Illinois to connect with the other crew members and all fly to Fort Lauderdale together in order to have a valid tour permit? Or, can a DEPARTURE point for a tour permit be anywhere the crew decides as long as it is a common departure point where everyone will rendevous prior to the official beginning of the trip. Our home base is in Illinois, and if all crew members were going to be in Illinois the day before the trip then we would all leave from Illinois and that is the DEPARTURE location that we would list on the tour permit, however, in this situation only 6 members of our crew will be in Illinois and the other 2 will be in Connecticut, making it cost prohibitive to fly to Illinois to hook up with the other crew members before heading to Florida. Has anyone filed a tour permit (AND BEEN APPROVED) using a trip DEPARTURE point that is anything other than their home base (town or state of sponsorship)?

[moosetracker]

Just to make sure you use the correct form. The Tour Permit is dead.. Long Lived the tour permit.. Now in use is the Tour Plan..

 

I would call your council to ask this question, unsure if the one who handles tour permits in everyones council is the receptionist, but that is our council. In any case the receptionist can link you with who does do the permits.

 

My gut feeling is that you start your tour plan with the 6 scouts and Adult leaders in Illinois.. The 2 other scouts are not apart of the Tour plan and thus not part covered as part of the trip until they meet up with your group at Ft. Lauderdale.. But only those two would be starting their trip in Florida..

 

How you add that into the tour plan, I do not know, but the person doing the tour plan at your council should be able to walk you through were they want to see this information on the form, and how they would like it worded.. In the long run they are approving the Tour plan, so you only have to make them happy..

 

Still, don't be surprised if they need to ask their supervisor what it is that will make them happy, and need to get back to you.. Such is the Bureaucratic life.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[rraffalo]

The two people in Connecticut is actually one scout and one of the adult leaders on the trip. The other 6 are 5 scouts and the other leader. Youth protection is satisfied because you are allowed to have only one leader in each vehicle on trips and there is no one-over-one leadership of any scout. The leader and scout in Connecticut are father and son.

 

The Committee Chairperson in our troop is telling us that everyone must leave from a common departure point in Illinois (our home base) or he will not sign the tour permit and send it to Council. Essentially, he wants the adult leader in Connecticut to fly to Illinois to join the other 6 people in their flight to Florida. But, he is ok with the scout who would then be in Connecticut alone, flying to Fort Lauderdale by himself. Doesn't make sense to me, as than one scout would be unsupervised.

[ScoutNut]

The Tour Planning Worksheet, & Tour Plan, ask for ALL of the details covering "all travel between (point a) and (point b). Your trip starts in Illinois, ends at Sea Base.

 

The Plan also asks for an itinerary for each day of the trip.

 

On the first line of the itinerary, on date 1, you travel from Hometown, IL airport to Fort Lauderdale, FL airport. On the second line, also on day 1, you travel from Vacationtown, CT airport, to Fort Lauderdale, FL airport. Then you go on from there.

[moosetracker]

Agree with ScoutNut.. If one of the adult leaders are comeing from Conneticut..

 

But, again, I would first call the Council and the person who does the tour permits. If you and they can come to an agreement, you can use it to get the CC on board.. If you can't get them to agree, then the tour plan will die there regardless of what your CC's views are.

[Eagle92]

If the scout and leader are parent and son, I would say that the starting point is your home location and note that one family will meet you at XYZ point.

 

I know when I do TOUR PLANS for my pack, I put I put "every family on their own" in regards to transportation.

 

What I find interesting is that there is a move locally to NOT have one central location to depart from to avoid caravans. Don;t know if this is council or volunteer directed, but that is someone's directive based upon the no caravans policy.

[rraffalo]

Does our troop Committee Chair have the authority to keep my son and I from going on this trip, or to replace me as a leader if I do not fly back to Chicago with my son to join the rest of the crew in departing from our home base? It seems he is over stepping his authority there because the National and Council policies state that you MUST have a common departure point and a common destination, but it does not prescribe that those points must be your home base or within your Council limits or within your home state. It is cost prohibitive for us to make that extra trip and I almost feel he is intentionally trying to make this situation difficult by interpreting the policy his way instead of following the exact words of the policy.

 

Does anybody know of a situation where crew members of a high adventure (or any other scout trek) have met at a common departure point that was a fair distance from their troop's home base?

[ScoutNut]

>>"National and Council policies state that you MUST have a common departure point"

[rraffalo]

See the paragraph just prior to "Safety Rule of Four" below... Common departure and destination points are a must.

 

That is not really my problem though... I'm arguing that the airport in Florida satisfies the requirement of a common departure point and our Committee Chairman is adamant that it must be from our home base. I disagree. Does anyone agree with me given the black and white rule?

 

 

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

 

It is the responsibility of the chartered organization of any Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, Varsity Scout team, or Venturing crew or ship to inform the committee and leadership of the unit that sufficient adult leadership must be provided on all trips and outings (coed overnight activities require both male and female adult leaders).

 

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

 

During transportation to and from planned Scout outings,

 

Meet for departure at a designated area.

 

Prearrange a schedule for periodic checkpoint stops as a group.

 

Plan a daily destination point.

 

 

A common departure site and a daily destination point are a must. If you cannot provide two adults for each vehicle, the minimum required is one adult and two or more youth membersnever one on one.

 

Safety rule of four: No fewer than four individuals (always with the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout. If an accident occurs, one person stays with the injured, and two go for help. Additional adult leadership requirements must reflect an awareness of such factors as size and skill level of the group, anticipated environmental conditions, and overall degree of challenge.

Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility.

Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units: Adults and youths of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four youths. A minimum of one of the adults is required to be Youth Protectiontrained. Adults must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as a temporary blanket or a sheet wall in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing area separated from the youth area.

When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

If separate shower and latrine facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times. The buddy system should be used for latrines by having one person wait outside the entrance, or provide Occupied and Unoccupied signs and/or inside door latches. Adult leaders need to respect the privacy of youth members in situations where youth members are changing clothes or taking showers, and intrude only to the extent that health and safety require. Adults also need to protect their own privacy in similar situations.

Two-deep adult leadership is required for flying activities. For basic orientation flights, the adult licensed pilot in control of the aircraft is sufficient for the flight, while two-deep leadership is maintained on the ground.

 

[moosetracker]

If there is someone in the troop willing to replace you, yes they can. The CC, SM or COR any of them could have you replaced, if they have someone to fill your shoes.. Overstepping what bounds? These key 3 are the controls to make sure that the troop is following the rules for saftey, as well as offering the a program to the boys that is the ideology of what scouting is all about.. Adults take a backseat to everything else.. Now if you have put money down on this trip, you should be given it back, since they are choosing to have someone go instead of you in consideration of the scouts safety during this trip.

 

 

Going by car can be everyone on their own, if they are not organizing a car pool. But orgainized transportation should be on the tour plan, if the trip requires a tour plan.. It asks for a itemization of everything, not an itemization of what you want to put down while skipping other things on the trip are not organized well...

 

The Tour plan requires trips longer then 500 miles to be documented.. A plane flight from Illinois to Florida will be 500 miles.. So the trip must be on a tour plan regardless of if they went to a high Adventure base, or went to play golf and then returned.

Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include:

Trips of 500 miles or more

Trips outside of council borders not to a council-owned property

Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event

 

 

The only way around that would be for each of the parents to fly their children to Florida seprately.. But that is as inconvient and costly for the other parents as it is for you to return to Illinois and start your trip from there.. Your group of 6 are traveling as a troop and need to be documented as such.. Since you can travel as one adult as long as not 1 on 1, this may be fine for Youth protection.. But, others may see problems such as loosing a scout at the airport, some scouts needing to use the bathroom or the adult leader needing to use the bathroom and leaving other scouts without Adult supervision.. Bad weather causing you to get stuck at the airport, or in some strange city the airplane was deviated to.. So they may not see this in the same light as a car trip travel with one adult and a few scouts..

 

Question is, how is your Council going to see this item, as simply travel, or as something that is or could turn into an event.

 

 

[rraffalo]

I believe all the rules are being followed to the letter. All these scouts are 14 years of age and older. They are not Cub Scouts. I believe a Committee Chairperson has the responsibility to follow the rules as they are documented just as a jury is to make their rulings based on the law, not their interpretation as correct as their interpretation may be. In this circumstance I believe the interpretation is overkill.

[rraffalo]

Moose Tracker (and everyone else):

 

There is no intention of mis-representing anything in the tour plan. We plan to put everything on the plan. This thread has never suggested hiding any of the details.

 

What if we had separate tour permits? My son and I from CT and the others with one adult leader from IL?

 

The other leader has two sons going on the trip and does not mind having the other three boys fly with her.

 

Parents of scout #4 are fine with their son flying with only her as a leader in the airport and on the plane.

 

Parents of scout #5 are fine with their son flying with only her as a leader in the airport and on the plane.

 

The Dad of scout #6 is our Committee Chairman. So, obviously from this thread you know he wants me back in Illinois to fly with the others. His son is 16. My son is 14 and he actually told me that to save money as long as I fly back to Illinois to fly with the other leader and 5 other scouts that my son could fly alone from Connecticut to Florida and meet us there.

 

It seems to me that he is looking to make this difficult, rather than being concerned for the safety of everyone. Let's face it my son flying alone is a greater risk. I am not going to enhance the safety of his son in O'Hare airport being that he is already 16 and drives a car. And, I'm definitely not going to be a benefit to safety on the plane. We are all flying at our own risk and under the care of the airline at that point.

 

Any further thoughts anyone?

[CalicoPenn]

Sometimes, I wish it were ok to roll up a newspaper and whack people upside the head with it when they try to pull boneheaded moves. I'd be smacking the CC upside the head pretty darn hard at this point.

 

There is nothing in any BSA policy that states that a Scout, Leader, Family, etc. must travel with the unit from point of departure to point of destination (or vice-versa). It's pretty darn common for Scouts and Leaders to join up with their units having traveled from elsewhere at the point of destination. Happens with weekend trips, happens with long term trips. If a Scout has an event on Friday night of a weekend trip but Mom/Dad can drive them out on Saturday morning for the rest of the trip, does your CC insist that they can't do that? Lot's of families will drive up on the final day of summer camp to pick up their son and continue on to points elsewhere for vacation. There is nothing wrong with this Leader and son coming to join you from Connecticut rather than flying back home.

 

So what would happen if the CC demands this and the Leader who is going to join up with the folks from Connecticut decides to say the heck with it and just not go? With this amount of short notice, can you get a second leader to step in to save the trip because if you can't, none of you are going. Is that the result you really want? It's time to bluntly tell your CC that his "power" over the signature is minor compared to the power that the second leader has right now - you can work around your CC, you can't work around having that second leader on the trip. Is the CC ready to tell the parents of the other 5 Scouts that the Sea Base trip they've worked for the past year is cancelled because he won't sign the form because the other Leader won't fly home from Connecticut to then fly to Florida? Guess who the parents are going to be screaming at - it won't be the second leader.

 

If the CC refuses to sign the tour permit, can you get someone else to sign it? Say, perhaps, your new CC after you have the COR can this guys butt immediately for trying to harm the progam?

 

[rraffalo]

Well... I think the CC may be waiting for my son and I to give up our spot, so that they can replace us with another adult and another scout that they would rather have on the trip...

 

But, if they do that then the CC should be happy there is another leader flying from Illinois, and my son and I should still be able to go. There would be 9 or 10 people on the trip instead of 8. I'm just not sure if SEA BASE could accommodate a group that has one or two additional people at this point or if the limit is 8 people total for the boat that is reserved for us. Not sure~

 

Any further thoughts from anyone? Should I speak with Council directly and should I get the COR involved?

[ScoutNut]

I would first contact council to see if they would have a problem approving a Tour Plan with two starting points.

 

If you receive council approval (get a contact name), then contact your COR, explain the situation, and give them the council contact name so council's approval can be verified.

 

The Tour Plan does not have to be signed by your Committee Chair. It can be signed by EITHER the CC, OR the COR.

 

 

 

If you file a separate Tour Plan for just you and your son, it would be considered a separate trip, and would need a second adult. The original Tour Plan would also then need a second adult.

 

If there is another adult and youth willing to go on this trip, why did they not sign up originally?

 

How are the 6 in Chicago getting to Ohare? That should be included in the itinerary also.

 

Per the Sea Base Web site, crew members can be added to the crew, up to the maximum number for the program you are doing, only up until the final payment is made.

 

Your Troop can transfer the reservation for you and your son to another two people.

 

If your Troop refuses to allow you on their reservation, you can contact Sea Base about connecting with a different group that has room for you, or a group that is short two people.

 

Edited to add that if you are able to tack onto another Troop's trip, that trip would not necessarily be the same kind, or at the same time, as your Troop's.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)