Hunting, Fishing, and Boy Scouts. HELP!

[flyerscout123]

So every year our troop has an annual "survival campout," where we teach our scouts skills and send them off on a campout to put them in a survival situation. If it sounds bad, its not, its quite fun. But my patrol, me being 15, was in charge of planning the whole campout. In earlier years our leaders have taught us how to trap animals for food, not that we have had any luck though. I had noticed while teaching Leave No Trace earlier in the year that Boy Scouts should not try to torment or put wildlife in an uncomfortable situation (snaring). I mentioned my concern in one of our planning meetings but the hard-headed military-minded leaders fired back saying,"Well whats the difference between hunting and fishing?" I was just trying to tell them that what we have been doing in the past can get us in trouble with BSA. I tried to suggest teach gathering food by plants and berries. But I got shot down. Any advice? I need some help.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums flyerscout123. You'll get many more responses to your situation but I guess I'm one of the first to the trough.

First, when anyone asks a rhetorical question along the lines, "What's the difference...???", this is an opportunity for you to educate them about the difference. I'll list a few things:

1. fish live in water and most of us don't use firearms to catch them.

2. that firearm aspect of hunting (or even bow and arrow) poses a problem for most activities in scouting. There is a set of regulations called the Guide to Safe Scouting that describes how to keep it safe and even lists some prohibited activities, hunting being among them.

3. as you might already suspect and depending on where you are, your chances of catching a fish with hook and line are probably greater than being able to snare a rabbit or squirrel or opossum or skunk..although if you can find a pile of garbage the skunk might come to you.

4. In most ecosystems, there is a far greater biomass of plants that support much smaller biomass of animals. Therefore, it is often more efficient to catch those slow-moving, defenseless plants (I guess roadkill could substitute).

 

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts that come to mind. In my area recently, there have been two novices who got themselves lost for a few days. Survival in each case depended more on being able to stay warm and dry and to find something safe to drink than being able to kill, cook, and eat a marauding frog or something. In this unit, we tend to pay attention to things that will harm us most quickly. For most of us, this means we can rely on an ample supply of stored fat for a few days if we need to. But we will need to stay warm and dry and we will need to have some water to drink. Firemaking, shelter construction, things like that seem more important than a deadly aim.

 

See....that's what happens when you ask a rhetorical question. You get a long answer. Welcome to the forums.

[qwazse]

My boys love survival weekends! So do I, actually.

 

I'm assuming that your concerns are solely about the LNT regs, and that none of your boys have any qualms about eating meat.

 

BSA is not going to revoke your troop's status if anyone snares a rabbit and eats it.

 

However, in setting up any kind of trap line, you are taking on the responsibility to monitor traps frequently, and quickly dispatch any prey that gets caught and injured. That's part of "a scout is kind."

 

Scouts who go on a 7 mile hike away from camp after setting a snare are being unkind. An animal fighting a poorly anchored snare for a few hours can tear up a lot of turf. That's where you cross into LNT violations.

 

You might want to consider inviting a local trapper to a meeting to explain some of these issues to you. He or she might be able to give you some pointers about how to better set your snares.

 

Pack's points are also valid. Besides, having a solid understanding of all edible plants might pay off in better spices for that rabbit stew - once you catch one!

[JoeBob]

If your survival situation does not involve hiding from an enemy, you're going to want to LEAVE TRACE so that you can be found.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, flyerscout123, welcome!

 

I think yeh have to keep everything in balance, eh?

 

LNT is a modern wilderness ethic that recognizes we have a whole lot of people tryin' to enjoy some very limited frontcountry and backcountry outdoors, so if each of us doesn't do all we can to preserve it unspoiled, we're goin' to lose it. Some of my favorite outdoors places as a young man your age are almost unrecognizable now. They've been so over-used by well-meaning or slightly careless people that they're almost unrecognizable. Brings a tear to my eye just thinkin' about it.

 

Of course, if you're comin' from an armed forces background, the emphasis is different eh? Just like for rappelling on a COPE course. We in da BSA teach you to rappel slowly and under control. But da rules are different if someone is shooting at you! Then yeh need to rappel with almost reckless speed and precision. So military training gets yeh different skills and practices because it's assuming different conditions.

 

Since you're actually civilian camping not travelin' with your patrol through da high country of Afghanistan, it's the LNT principles yeh should be followin' most of da time.

 

"Survival" situations, of course, are on the line where civilian campin' has to make some compromises. That's why I don't particularly care for da practice in the BSA, since if we teach good camping skills then there's never really a need for "survival" skills. But we're a "be prepared" organization, so havin' some survival skills in our toolkit that we practice on private land that can take the abuse is an OK thing. And in a survival situation, most times of da year yeh won't get enough calories or nutrition out of just gathering edible plants. So for anything longer than a week (or a long weekend if yeh want to stay comfortable), you're goin' to want to be thinkin' about hunting or trapping or fishing, and know how to prepare an animal so caught. Yeh need da calories and the complete protein to be able to function well.

 

So I think you're both right, eh? You're right, in that in a civilian camping environment, LNT should be the rule (plus there might be hunting/trapping laws that yeh need to be aware of in your area!). Some of da others here are right that in a shorter-term "lost" or "survival" scenario, yeh shouldn't spend any time catching food, you should be workin' on water, shelter, and getting found. And your adult leaders are right that in a longer-term lost or survival situation, yeh would want to know how to hunt, fish, or trap, and learning that stuff is an OK thing if yeh learn it well and in the proper environment.

 

All things in balance, eh? But a Scout Salute to yeh for being mentally awake and really thinkin' about this stuff, and for havin' the courage to question and challenge things you see that might be a problem. Would love to have you in any troop, mate!

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

First, congratulations on being tapped to head up the campout. Sounds like fun!

 

Second, since you're in charge, have a meeting of the minds with your SM and SPL and make sure that they support you and are OK with you overruling the "military-minded" adults. It's your call, not theirs.

 

Third, the priorities for survival, according to the BSA, are:

 

1. Positive attitude.

2. Stay put if you are lost.

3. First aid.

4. Shelter.

5. Fire.

6. Signaling.

7. Water.

8. Food.

 

Take that list back to the "military-minded" individuals and show them how far down food ranks on that list. Tell them you've chosen to emphasize the other elements for this event, given that you can live weeks without food - as the BSA teaches. Rendering first aid, getting protection from the elements and getting found are much more important hands-on skills.

 

Good luck! Keep us posted on how things work out.

[flyerscout123]

Thank you guys so much. It really helps to get the opinions and advice from other scouters. I will take these into consideration and will try to convince everybody to do whats right.

 

God Bless,

Greg

[acco40]

. . . the hard-headed military-minded leaders fired back saying,"Well whats the difference between hunting and fishing?"

 

Not much some believe. Those same "some" are trying to make fishing verboten just like hunting in the BSA.

 

A friend of mine in his early 60's was a boy scout (BSA flavor) in Korea in the early 60's. He said for his camping trips - they were mostly patrol type outings (Kudu would approve) but always had at least on adult - a non-scouter who just so happened to accompany the boys with his M-16. For rations the boys would carry only a couple of eggs and some flour. When meal time came around, they would capture "Korean" frogs (not like anything we have in the states he told me), hold them by the back legs and whack them against a tree. Their legs would rip out of their bodies and it was a simple task to peel back the leg skin and then fry them up in a simple egg/flour batter. Delicious!

 

I don't think the above would go over well in today's society. What is the purpose of your survival training? Caught behind enemy lines? Assume one gets lost on a campout? I'd say skip the "hunting" and concentrate on recognizing your surroundings (fluid sources, plant recognition, etc.) and how to protect against exposure, etc.(This message has been edited by acco40)