By The Books

[Eagle007]

Because we don't know and will probably never know if there was some underlying medical issue besides being overweight in the Florida Everglades death related case, how many of us will put ourselves in the line of fire and abide by the height and weight chart set forth by national for scouts and scouters alike? How many of us will be strickly by the book on this?

 

How many of us will look the scout, parents and scouter in the face and say, "Little Johnnie/Mrs. Doe/ASM Doe let me measure your height and stand on this scale so I can weigh you. Well, because you don't meet the height/weight requirements as set forth by BSA National, you can't go with us to this event or outing." Or, "You can't go because your doctor said you were overwieght according to the chart. I'm sorry, but if I allow you to go and something were to happen to you I could be sued."

 

Will you be the one to cave in to the groaning and weeping from Little Johnnie and his parents? I wonder after the previously mentioned lawsuit how deep of pockets national will have?

 

It makes one think.

[CalicoPenn]

I'm not asking.

[Knot Head]

>>>> "You can't go because your doctor said you were overwieght according to the chart. I'm sorry, but if I allow you to go and something were to happen to you I could be sued."

[moosetracker]

Here's another question. How many will question that med form with Dr. Signature when the weight is obviously wrong??

 

We have an adult leader who is obviously not the weight that is on the med Form.. He states he is the same weight as my husband.. He is taller and has a gut on him.. My husband is shorter and does not..

 

When you look at his med form you question who really filled it out and signed it.. When you are suppose to take them at their word as being honest, how do you call them out on it?

 

Already know he doesn't judge things, he went on a hike up a mountain and turned back leaving the scouts (not a patrol, just a group from the troop) to continue the hike without him, while he went back.. (Well not good to leave the scouts on their own, but at least he didn't continue further and then need to be carried down)..

 

Would you take out the scale and ask him to hop on??

 

For me, I am so glad I am not in a position where I would have to call out anyone.. This is not going to be a fun task..

[The Blancmange]

It's not just Philmont that is at issue. It's your next weekend campout or day hike in the state park, and maybe even Court of Honor, because, according to the form, it is "strongly encouraged" that the guidlines be enforced for "all other events."

 

Can those of you who operate in constant fear of lawsuits be seen as turning a blind eye to BSA's "strong encouragement" ?(This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[BrentAllen]

I'd have absolutely no problem telling a Scout he can't attend, if I didn't think he was up to it. We have a 4 day, 3-night backpacking trip to Cumberland Island coming up next month. I told Scouts last year that to be able to attend, they had to go on some of our other weekend backpacking trips. Their first backpacking trip with the Troop WILL NOT be a 4-day, 3-nighter on an island. Weight would be the same issue. Skills, weight, proper equipment - any of those issues could keep a Scout off a trip.

 

Moose - we do weigh-ins on all our backpacking trips, both Scouts and adults (we have scales as part of our Troop equipment). We make sure everyone is not carrying more than 25% of body weight. If we had questions about a Scouter's weight, it would be out in the open at one of these weigh-ins.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Eagle007]

Moose, would I take out the scale and ask him to hop on? Yes ma'am, I would in a heartbeat, just prior to the event or trip. I would be polite and explain that anyone refusing to weigh in or exceeding the limits wouldn't be able to attend until the requirements are met.

 

Guess what? That would unfortunately include me because I exceed the weight requirements for my height. So beginning tomorrow I will be at the gym working on MY spare tire.

 

Brent is right. Weight isn't the only thing that would keep someone from attending.

[JMHawkins]

I told Scouts last year that to be able to attend, they had to go on some of our other weekend backpacking trips. Their first backpacking trip with the Troop WILL NOT be a 4-day, 3-nighter on an island.

 

Camp Sheppard on Mt. Rainer used to do High Adventure treks up the mountain (they just stopped this year - apparently because the Fed Gov asked them to - if anyone has more info, please pass it on). Anyway, it's not an easy trek. Half the people who try to summit fail, and 96 people have died climbing the mountain. It's serious business going up there. For local folks, the camp staff recommended a particular training hike up Mt. Si (a smaller, less frozen, closer to help mountain). It's a steep trail and a pretty good workout. I forget the time they suggested you be able to do it, but they had a time limit. If you could do the Mt. Si trail in the alloted time, you were probably fit enough for a try at the big mountain.

 

Fit isn't the only requirement, there are a lot of technical skills needed too, but I really like the idea of a shorter hike in a more accessible region as a conditioning test.

[moosetracker]

Just seeing the responses.. Unfortunately it is the SM, so someone would need to get the COR to make the rule, and other people (scouts or scouters) would need to insist on it not being "forgotten"..

 

Blancmange - where did you read about it being "all other events"??

 

I read the following:

 

is the physical exam that is required for participants in any event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, for all high-adventure base participants, or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding. Service projects or work weekends may fit this description.

 

on the form (part C) I see the following:

 

If you exceed the maximum weight for height as explained on this page and your planned high-adventure activity will take you more than 30 minutes

away from an emergency vehicleaccessible roadway, you will not be allowed to participate.

 

 

I also read something really odd that stated that you could not attend Woodbadge without meeting the risk factor.. Now I am not sure where I read those (if anyone can re-point me to that link)..

 

But I thought summer camp (if you can get a Dr. signature on med form) and things like cabin camping and car camping events would were OK.. Not something so complete you could not go to a Court of Honor, due to weight or seizures. COH's are more low inpact then a scout meeting most times (unless you host yours after a 5 mile hike up a mountian)..

 

Basically the dumbing down of the Boy Scout program if you have no adult leaders that are "risk free".. Or your troop does not want to single out some boys. Or if you try people start complaining of discrimination).. So the troop starts to plan events everyone can take.

 

If you can't even go to a COH, then forget the car camping & cabin camping, and maybe even the scout meetings..

 

(in other words, you are pathetic and a lost cause.. Go back to your couch and roll up and die, because you are past being able to get any exercise in now in order to change your condition.)

[The Blancmange]

>>>>>> Blancmange - where did you read about it being "all other events"??

 

It's the last line ine the black box about 1/3 of the way down on the Part C page:

 

"Enforcing the height/weight guidelines is strongly encouraged for all other events."

 

Great drafting, eh?

 

This isn't the first or only time we've seen what sounds like a rule or policy (and a poorly drafted one at that) appearing only in a form.

 

>>>>> I also read something really odd that stated that you could not attend Woodbadge without meeting the risk factor.. Now I am not sure where I read those (if anyone can re-point me to that link)..

 

It's on the cover page (the one that is all text) on the old form. I don't see it on the new one.

 

(This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[Eagle92]

I hate to say it, but in today's sue happy society I'm going by the book by the book.

[Eagle007]

I'll ask this again for emphasis and make it personalized to your local unit. If you allow any of these people that are over the limits on national's chart to attend an event or outing and something happens to them, regardless of whether it was due to being overweight or another underlying issue, will you and/or your troop be covered by the umbrella of the BSA insurance? Remember, you allowed people who were outside the regulations set forth by national to attend an event or outing so they didn't have national's blessing. And I'm hoping that this would be the primary insurance because I can't think of any scouters in my troop that have a separate personal liability umbrella policy.

[The Blancmange]

 

I hate to say it, but in today's sue happy society I'm going by the book by the book.

You can say that again! :-) I like to follow the rules too. But it's kind of difficult to "go by the book" when you can't figure out what the book is saying, or worse yet, which book to go by when "the books" conflict with one another.

 

As for Eagle007's question, it's hard to answer that without the actual certificate of insurance, or whatever the document is called, that spells out the coverage provided. However, they only things they have explicitly said are not covered are the specifically enumerated prohibited activities. Courts are generally pretty reluctant to limit coverage when the exclusion is not quite specifically spelled out. I would say they would have a hard time excluding coverage for someone who didn't follow a vague recommendation. I would hope that someone (RichardB????) would clarify this before the form goes live.(This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[moosetracker]

OK.. Found where I saw the Woodbadge statement.. I think I read it wrong..part C is only needed for Woodbadge if it is longer then 72 hours straight (I think).. And if it is a full week rather then 2 seperated weekends, it falls into the confusing mess of Height/weight not required but need Dr. signiture testifying that you fall in the height/weight requirements.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Resources/MedicalFormFAQs.aspx

 

First reference is:

 

Part C (the physical examination) should be completed if you are participating in an event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, such as high adventure bases (Philmont, Northern Tier, and Florida Sea Base), jamborees, summer camps, and Wood Badge training courses

 

 

 

Another area on page:

 

The height/weight chart generally would not apply in the following situations (unless specific instructions are issued as an exception):

 

The majority of BSA resident camps, most local council Cub Scout/Boy Scout resident camps have drive-up campsites and dont require packing in or out.

 

Cub Scout programs. (Backcountry and high-adventure are not age-appropriate for Cub Scouting.)

 

Wood Badge courses in a typical resident camp setting, though courses held at a national high-adventure base like Philmont Scout Ranch will enforce the limit.

 

 

 

[The Blancmange]

I hadn't previously seen the FAQ's. Thanks for the link. They certainly don't do much to clear up confusion, espcially when one part says, quite clearly, that the guidelines apply to "Wood Badge training courses," and another part says they "generally would not apply" to "Wood Badge courses in a typical resident camp setting."

 

Now, I haven't been exposed to that many WB courses outside of my area, but are there really a significant number of courses held somewhere other than in a "typical resident camp setting?" Enough to justify an exception that makes the rule meaningless?

 

It's almost as if there are two different people who have never spoken to one another writing these documents.