Boards of Review and SM Conferences

[Rooster7]

Agreed.

[FScouter]

BobWhite: I contend that the uniform policy you are quoting is very vague and must be interpreted by the members of the Board of Review.

 

Here are two fictitious examples of policies that are very specific:

When presenting himself at a Board of Review, a Scout must wear the official Scout shirt with insignia, the official Scout pants, the official Scout belt, the official Scout socks and the official Scout merit badge sash.

 

At the other extreme, but also very specific:

When presenting himself at a Board of Review, a Scout may wear any uniform part or parts, or any street clothes, at his option.

 

And then we have the vague official BSA policy:

wear as complete and correct a uniform as he can.

 

Vague policies MUST be interpreted. And if one unit interprets differently than another unit, that does not make one of them wrong.

 

[eisely]

Bob White,

 

The uniform question for boards of review is relatively trivial. Most units have policies that scouts show up for BOR in complete uniform, as defined by the unit. Our troop for example, neither requires nor encourages the acquisition or wearing of the BSA baseball type hat.

 

I am more concerned about the overall role of the BOR compared to the role of the scoutmaster and the scoutmaster conference. I think I understand this, but I would like to hear more. In other threads there have even been questions raised as to whether a BOR had the authority to refuse a rank promotion. If that is true, why bother with a BOR? Your thoughts?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Once again, I get to reference my favorite website in the WHOLE WIDE WORLD, Meritbadge.com.

It had links to three sites which dealt with BOR. Two of them were the same posting. Both sites certainly say that the BOR may prevent the scout from advancing. When I tried the USSSP, a search for BOR came up with the same posts as Meritbadge.com.

 

A BOR that refuses to advance a rank must be sure to provide to the scout and SM why their decision was made and should not be a surprise to the SM. But if they cant refuse, I echo, why do them?

[Bob White]

We are making real head way here. Some see the light and some see it they just don't realize it.

 

1. Neither I or the BSA said the Board cannot refuse the advancement. What has been said(as is the policy of the BSA is you can't refuse the scout the opportunity to meet with the board.

 

2. The BSA is very specific in its policy that NO UNIT has the authority to add to or subtract from the advancement policies or reqirements. Since the BSA specifically requires a neat appearance and the most complete and correct uniform that the scout can do" a unit CANNOT, within the the ppolicies of the BSA, demand a specific level of uniforming. It is a case-by-case basis at the determination of the Board.

 

This is not a matter of personal opion or at all gray area stuff. this is in clear print in the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual.

[sst3rd]

As stated on the other thread but wishing to add to......

 

You're in uniform or you are not in uniform. Our Troop does the uniform bank, etc.. A reasonable time is given for a new Scout (and his parent) to assemble a uniform and at no time is allowed to wear a partial uniform (we've heard all of the excuses about the pants being dirty, etc.). We hold BOR's and SM Conferences all year, and not just prior to rank advancement. A uniform will always be required for the BOR. Bob, your desire to state rules and procedures and where there is simply no room for interpretation, is interesting, and I guess you think you're providing a service. Enjoy, but there is room for interpretation, and there are many gray areas in the Scouting program. Every unit is different, and approaches the program with the resources it has. Training and experience in Scouting provides the basis for making the best decisions for a specific Scouting program. Scouting has become an ever increasingly complicated program to execute. Many adults (and/or parents) simply can't and/or won't make the time to support Scouting. Some large Troops in our area won't allow a boy to join their Troop unless a parent joins with him. I understand this policy, but our Troop's tradition is not to turn a boy away from Scouting. You don't like to see interpretations of rules, and demand that we abide by them to the letter. The uniform policy you state is very low on our list. Uniforms will be required for BOR's. Period. When Scouters have to train and advise youth leaders to plan and execute an exciting program, we have to deal with REAL Scouts, with REAL parents (when there are parents), with REAL Patrols and Troops on REAL camping trips. The Scouting Spirit will continue to guide our programs.

Of course you'll say that I'm changing the rules and that we (all of our adult leaders in the Troop, District, and Council) have NO authority to do so. In case you haven't been down on the Troop level for awhile, you pick your battles. This is all I will say on this subject.

 

sst3rd

[sctmom]

Question from a new Boy Scouter here:

 

If a scoutmaster sees that a boy is not ready for his Board of Review, doesn't he have a responsibility to talk to the boy and encourage him to hold off on the BOR? I would think that would fall under the category of being a mentor. Not having worked at the Boy Scout level, I don't know of a exact case where this might happen but it seems if the Scoutmaster sees my son is not ready to be a First Class scout then he should say "let's go over a few things before you go for your BOR" or "I think you need to hold off on the BOR right now until you feel more comfortable with Requirements X, Y and Z". Maybe the Scoutmaster thinks the Scout really didn't learn anything from the requirements but they somehow got signed off at summer camp.

 

As a parent and based on what I've read, I think the Scoutmaster and other adults in the troop need to use common sense when applying "the rules". Each boy is different and each troop is different. I hope that the boys aren't being taught to be real picky about semantics of words like some of our politicians seem to do.

 

[Bob White]

Hi again sctmom,

You're right on track on alot of the topics so far, but let me see if I can clarify something you mentioned on advancement. If a SM feels a scouts behavior or participation is not scout-like then they can hold off on signing that portion of the handbook.

However as far as his skill level at requirements "X,Y and Z" you need to understand two things.

1. That once the requirement has been signed in the book it is approved and there is no taking it back. If you feel that the scout has not met the requirement, don't sign the book. but remember, the scout does not have to meet anyones expectation of performance level. They are required only to do thier best.

 

2. The Board cannot retest the scout on his skills. They are to evaluate the boys character growth, and gather input from the scout to help evaluate the effectiveness of the troop program.

 

I realize the "rules" of scouting are unique to what most adults encoumter in other youth programs, or even how we are used to dealing with youth at home or school, but that's what makes it scouting. We are a unique program with unique methods and program elements.

 

This makes adult training so important. You cannot lead a scouting program using pre-concieved ideas of leadership and youth development.

 

Bob

 

 

[sctmom]

I went to the pages referenced by OGE. It says the Board of Review can not retest the scout but by talking to him can decide if he meet the requirements or not. So, I would take that to mean if when asked about did he like learning to orient a map and he says "huh? what is orient? what map?", the BOR can say "stop, do not pass go, do again."

 

Having been in the Cub Scout world for the past few years, I'm not sure I agree with your statement of "do your best". In Cub Scouts, the scout has to 'try' most things. Now, if I "try" to tie a tautline hitch and I try 10 times and I still don't have a tautline hitch, but I say "I did my best", did I really meet the requirement? (barring any severe physical limitations).

 

I do understand the theory behind "doing your best" in a leadership position. This is for learning about leadership, not doing it perfectly or to a certain quality level.

 

[Bob White]

Actually neither the official scouting literature or meritbadge.com, say "the Board of Review can not retest the scout but by talking to him can decide if he meet the requirements or not"

 

What they do say is

"The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals. Scout spirit is defined as living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in a Scout's everyday life. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community."

 

The Boards respnsibility does not extend into asking or testing scouts on skills, only on personal growth, and in the case of advancement to a new rank to make sure all the advancement steps have been completed.

 

The big reason for this is, to take one young man and put him in a room with 3 practical adult starngers and ask him to perform skills for them to judge is unfair to the boy.

 

Do Your Best is not a "theory" of scouting.. it's a core belief.

 

Good healthy discussion!

[Rooster7]

"...the scout does not have to meet anyones expectation of performance level. They are required only to do thier best."

 

Except that of the person signing off the requirement - of course. Which is why it is important that you carefully choose your merit badge counselors and your Scoutmaster's Corps. A square knot is a square knot. If the Scout can't tie one properly, he should not be signed off, even if he tried his best.

[Bob White]

Rooster7 is correct. If it seemed I was saying that even if he couldn't do the skill but did his best he passes. Not at all. He has to do the skill but at his own level of performance. He doesn't have to tie the knot as fast as someone else can, or with a specific piece of line, or behind his back. He just needs to tie the square knot. If he can't, don't sign the book. Once you sign the book you cannot re-test him. Give him opportunities to practice and use his skill.

[Chippewa29]

One requirement that can be used to prevent/delay the advancement of a Scout is the one requiring he show Scout Spirit in his daily life. It is kind of like the BSA's equivalent to a parent telling a child around Christmas, "If you misbehave, then Santa will put you on his list of bad boys and girls and not bring you presents". When I've done SM conferences with Scouts, I basically do three things. First, I ask them questions about how they feel about the troop, what has happened, and what they would like to see both for themselves and the troop. I'll also ask them some questions about other activities going on in their life at the time. Second, I'll let them know the things they are doing right, often giving specific examples in order to encourage them to repeat them. Finally, I'll let them know where they need to improve. It may be a uniforming issue (basically wearing what they have correctly) or a behavioral issue.

 

When I did the second class BOR with our challenge Scout, I not only talked about those things with him, but also wrote them down (a suggestion from someone on this message board) and told him to show it to his parents. I also made sure he knew that although I didn't expect him to be perfect, I did expect him to make some improvements in certain areas (being on time, not interrupting meetings, obeying the PL, etc.) and that if he didn't show improvement, I could delay him getting his 1st class (his eyes got very big at the thought). A few weeks ago, while the Scouts were cleaning up the meeting room, he was over at the book table. The PL told him what he needed to do for his share (a very easy job) and he ignored it. When I reminded him about the Scout Spirit requirement, his eyes got big again and he got to work.

 

I've got one other Scout that I've got on alert for a behavioral issue (he constantly and loudly blames others when something goes wrong) that he needs to work on. Fortunately, his parents are very happy I'm pushing him to improve in this area. He now has a concrete reason why he can't continue that and has been watching himself a little bit better over the past couple of months.

 

A lot of the confrontations that occur over BOR and SM conferences are things that should be taken care of beforehand. If watched properly, the SM conference and the BOR should just be technicalities when getting a rank.

 

Also, if the troop system is done well enough, then it shouldn't be a problem getting the quality you need out of a Scout. We have a Scout who is turning 18 in March and will be sliding in under the wire in finishing his Eagle. He is a good kid that has grown a lot under the past couple of years. However, he isn't what I would expect from an Eagle Scout. I'm not about to try and stop him (for one, his parents would rip my head off), but I'll be raising the standards (not changing the requirements) over the next few years. This Scout grew up in a Scout troop that had no systems, uniforms were not emphasized at all, and he was never trained as a leader. I became SM when he turned 17. He has gotten better about wearing his uniform in that time and has developed some as a leader, so I feel that his advancement to Eagle is warranted. However, I'll take the blame personally if a Scout in our troop a few years from now makes it to that point in the same fashion as he did.

[Bob White]

Great points Chippewa29.

I would caution you about one thing "raising your standards" the standards are already set by the BSA. Look at it more as elevating your use of the scouting program to meet those standards. I'm not trying to play with words, it's an attitude thing. As human beings we hold different people to different standards based on emotional attachments and personal qualms. Sticking to the BSA standards keeps the playing field level.

[Chippewa29]

Bob- thanks for your concern, but I'm not talking about changing requirements. I'm talking about making sure the Scouts have strong standards to live up to (as the BSA intended) without having to be superhuman. For example, our previous SM thought a good uniform was the shirt tucked in. He didn't think it was necessary to wear the pants, belt, neckerchief, etc. except for a COH. Also, as I've mentioned in other posts before, my troop was previously 90% adult run. Our older Scouts weren't really leaders, but rather guys that just communicated the SM's wishes (he was good at a lot of things, but believed that the Scouts weren't capable of making a lot of decisions on their own). Therefore, until a year ago, our 17 year old Scout wasn't used to idea of Scouts actually running things and just went along for the ride (his dad was of the same philosophy as the SM). We are now about 40% boy run and I'm shooting for 90% by the end of 2003. By that point, I will expect the Scouts to be able to not only follow a meeting plan, but develop individual meetings (without repeating the same things over and over) and long range plans for the troop in regards to advancement and outdoor activities. Also, when adults go to a campout, if the Scouts are trained correctly and have high standards set for them, the adults should just be an insurance policy enjoying watching the Scouts run their own program.