Campout Participant Limits

[Kudu]

Scouter760 writes:

 

"We have a cabin camp out next weekend. The webelos crossed over sooner than originally expected and put our numbers over what we were allowed in the cabin. So, it's the first time I can remember us having to limit a camp-out. We are not a huge troop though. Boys need opportunities for camping, and I would hate to have to limit it every month. That just doesn't make sense to me."

 

We always made an adventure out of February crossovers by having the brand-new Scouts get their Tenderfoot tent camping requirement out of the way in the snow. We required them each to bring two (2) closed-cell camper mats ($7 each at Walmart) plus a couple of extra blankets each. They kept everything in the warm cabin until bedtime, when we helped them layer the mats on the tent floors. They slept in loose warm clothing plus a dry hat and a hoodie, at least three to each tent with the smallest Scout in the middle. Depending on how far below freezing the conditions are, one to six of the blankets can be draped over ALL THREE (3) sleeping bags.

 

Our lazy but rugged Patrols preferred to sleep in lean-tos rather than inside a crowded cabin with the adults, thereby eliminating the hassel of tents.

 

Everybody cooked and ate in the cabin.

 

Kudu

 

[Stosh]

BWCA limits the number of people on a crew/permit. Philmont limits the number of people on a trek. Sea Base limits the number of people in a crew. Sometimes the boys have to figure out that 1) someone is not going to be going or 2) someone has to step up to the plate and double their resouces to make it happen. I took 36 boys up to BWCA on 4 permits. We didn't see much of each other, but a ton of boys had a great time.

 

Stosh

[Hal_Crawford]

Good point Stosh. Shenandoah National Park limits backpacking parties to 10 on a permit. I suspect a lot of other national parks set similar standards in the interest of LNT.

 

 

[AwHeck]

Agreed that high adventure trips usually have limits on group sizes but this thread was spun from a comment that a troop of 40-60 scouts routinely limits their monthly campouts to 20-25 participants. I can easily see them only having 20-25 based on interest for a given trip but not based on artificial limits. I can't imagine that virtually ALL the locations that the troop is using for monthly camps have such limits.

[GernBlansten]

Wilderness rules in Colorado limit groups to 15.

We as a troop have never limited camping unless there was a resource limitation, OKPIK reservations, Philmont crew, wilderness rules. If we winter cabin camp, most of the boys want to sleep outside anyways.

[Beavah]

Yah, group size limits seem to be showin' up a lot these days, eh? I hear tell that some land managers are gettin' pretty aggressive about ticketing scout units for hikin' with more than the limit.

 

How are folks handlin' this? Especially in those bigger troops?

 

Yah, sure, yeh can send da lads off as patrols, but in a lot of cases the separation rules are quite a bit more than Kudu's proverbial 300 feet. Enough to require a fair bit in terms of extra drivin' resources and/or adults to support truly independent treks the way jblake describes.

 

How are units adaptin'? I worry that the effect might be that units simply retreat to scout camps and dense-pack group sites.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>> Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't.

[Gunny2862]

Our Troop is growing, yea!

Oh no, our Troop is growing!

 

Yes, in Stosh's perfect world there are no problems divide them up into Patrols and let them run, the boys will arrange for their own transport by bus or train or hitchhiking (okay maybe not hitchhiking) to where they need to be to start hiking into the wild.

 

For the rest of us, available transport can be a limiting factor. Simply having enough cabin spaces on a given weekend if one has a Winter Cabin camp. Land managers are paying more attention (probably rightly so) to the issue. There are workarounds for most of these issues - creativity and advance planning by the boys and/OR the adults is the key.

 

What I'm finding so far is that the more Boys you have the more people there are who go camping. As long as we can improve our parental support as we gain new Boys(even if it's just another ASM for the new Patrol and a realization that once or twice a year each family is going to need to drive and maybe an additional committee member) I think we can get thru it.

[BrentAllen]

Barry,

It was because of comments like that why I started the thread on Patrol Method According to Green Bar Bill. I'll quote him again.

 

"The Patrol Method does not imply that the Patrols be let loose and permitted to run each in its own direction independent of the others. On the contrary, unless it promotes the coordination and cooperation of the Patrols--for the good of the common denominator, the Troop--the Patrol Method fails."

 

"Every Patrol has its obligation toward and its share in THE LARGER LIFE OF THE TROOP. A Patrol could never have the truest kind of Patrol spirit unless is also had, in a very active way, genuine Troop spirit, pride in the Troop as a whole, eagerness to help the Troop make a good showing in whatever it undertakes, devotion to Troop traditions, Troop ideals, and especially to the Troop's leaders."

 

"The Patrols are the working units in Scouting, while the Troop organization provides supervision and coordination, and establishes loyalty and opportunities for service.

 

In other words, a Troop is NOT divided into Patrols. A TROOP IS THE SUM TOTAL OF ITS PATROLS."

 

Green Bar Bill

 

In the future for our Troop, I think we are looking toward working with the concept of Crew Trips for special outings that have limited space. This would be in contrast to Troop outings where the Patrol Method is normal SOP. For instance, the Okefenokee trip we just went on had a limit of 25 persons on Mixon's Hammock. The other trail routes, which involve overnighting on small wooden platforms, are limited to 20 people - and 20 would be pushing it, given the small size of some of those platforms. Our Troop had no problem with the restriction this year, but probably will next year. Cumberland Island, another local favorite, would be a difficult trip for a large Troop.

 

So, for one or maybe two trips a year, we may work with a Crew format, similar to the HA programs. I just don't want to let this grow so big that we forget what Scouting is about - Patrol Method outdoor activities. If the Crew philosophy starts to crowd out Patrol Method, then you really just end up with a camping club, not a Boy Scout program.

 

As you may know, Green Bar Bill termed the older Scouts as Senior Scouts, and had programs set up for them. Some Senior Scouts were even more defined as Explorer Patrols or Explorer Troops. This was the foundation for today's Venture Patrol. We don't have any Scouts that would fit the description of a Senior Scout, so we don't have the issue of coming up with a program to keep older boys involved - yet. So, I have a little time to try to crack that nut, and I'm thinking the Crew trip format might help in that endeavor.

[Stosh]

Patrol membership runs 6-8 boys. This number is, in the boys' estimation, the most effective. Less than 6 the patrol is too small to cover all the bases and over 8 the numbers get to be too much for a PL to handle and keep track of. There's a reason by BP suggested 8 in a patrol, he knew what he was doing even 100 years ago. The boys decided on patrol sizes after taking leadership training.

 

Our program is patrol oriented (patrol-method), so activities that limit numbers is not an issue because size limits seldom are less than the membership of the patrol. If the whole troop (troop-method) is doing an activity and there's 40 boys going, they aren't going to fit into a limit of 8-9 people. However, if the patrol method is used, each patrol fits nicely into the limits. It's just simple math. Like my daddy used to say, "You can't cram 10# of crap in a 5# bag." If one wishes to do BWCA, get a permit for each patrol...end of discussion, life goes on. BWCA is an excellent opportunity for patrol-method scouting. Adults on one permit, boys on another. There are plenty of places in BWCA where campsites are relatively close, where a whistle could alert the adults nearby of a serious problem.

 

Yes, in my near-perfect world we have no problems with transportation to and from events for the patrols. We have plenty of adults ready to give rides anywhere they wish to go. If the boys need help getting transportation together, that's what the adult leaders do, they assist the boys with solutions they are having difficulty working around. Boys that do independent activities are required to leave an itinerary with at least 2 adults/parents so everyone is on the same page, (basic scout safety, nothing to do with patrol-method.) None of my boys have ever not been able to go to an activity they have planned because of transportation problems.

 

Parents that don't want to do the hike, but give rides can catch a hotel room, keep the cell phone and itinerary handy and relax while the boys go hiking.

 

Too often we hear the boys can't do an activity without adults and then every excuse expressed under the sun to keep the boys from becoming independent. I would think that the adults in the BSA program would be trying to devise any and every effort around assisting the boys to be independent instead of creating reasons why they can't. Boys tire quickly of the can't-do attitude of adults, especially after they have been promised a can-do attitude when recruited.

 

By the way, after 18 months we finally had to say NO to a patrol. A PL approached me asking for patrol permission to go paint-balling. My ASPL interruped the conversation before I could answer by saying BSA prohibits it. He did say that he, himself, was big into paint-balling and if their parents would like to work it out amongst themselves they could work out a non-BSA patrol activity for the boys and he would go along for fun.

 

Never underestimate the leadership skills of your boys, but then again, never crimp their efforts with one's own prejudices or likes/dislikes either.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

so if the troop take 40 kids on a campout, and there are 8 youth in a patrol and each patrol is 300 feet from the next, then it's still a troop doing the troop method? I guess I don't understand the distinctions being made here.

[Eagledad]

Stosh, you lost me. Other than that you guys restrict patrol size, the rest of you post doesnt seem to address the subject. Im glad your SPL said no to paintball, but isnt that what he is supposed to do?

 

BrentAllen, I was the Scoutmaster of a troop of 90 scouts. About 40 percent of the troop was 14 and older and we average about three high adventure trips a years. We also take the Troop of 40 to 60 scouts on many campouts that require several smaller groups to function. But that is easy for a troop because its made of patrols. Size just never came up as an issue for outdoor activities. So I dont quite understand your concern.

 

Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing. Those patrols meet outside their normal patrol and troop meetings to organize and prepare for their trip. Maybe that is what you mean by special outings. How would that take away from the scouting program? Each patrol still requires a leading, planning and team work. We have been doing temporary special activity patrols for years and they only enhance your program, not take away from it.

 

Im glad you are looking a head and trying to prevent problems, but you are almost creating problems here. As long as you maintain healthy permanent patrols, temporary patrols will only add more quality to your program.

 

Sounds like your program is doing well.

 

Barry

 

[Lisabob]

My son's troop varies between 40-60 boys most of the time. Setting aside HA activities which might require participation limits for obvious reasons, our regular monthly camp outs are not capped.

 

Of course, when the troop does its annual planning, the boys talk through the challenges of certain activities for a troop of our size. And there are some lovely camp sites that couldn't accommodate us. So the boys choose activities that fit with the needs of the troop and we select campsites that work for us. Although that means there are some places that we don't tend to go, better that than frequently setting participation limits on ordinary camp outs. Now if we got a lot bigger (say, 80-100 scouts) then I can see where we'd need to take another look at the way we do things. But I seriously doubt that would happen. 60 boys is a stretch for us and the troop seems to function more effectively when we're between 40-50 boys.

[Stosh]

My apologies for not making myself understandable. It sounds right to me, but if that's not making sense to you, I'm not communicating. Sorry.

 

If I have 5 patrols in my troop for example. The two older patrols want to do BWCA, each patrol is responsible for getting their patrol to the event. The PLC can help facilitate any communication between the two patrols, but with that few of numbers the two PL's just hash it out between the two of them. Permits are limited to more than the number in the patrol so there's no problem there. This I see as a patrol organized event.

 

Suppose out of the 5 patrols all five want in on the trip. The dynamics are the same except maybe more assistance from the PLC is needed to coordinate 5 PL's instead of just 2. No problem.

 

On the other hand, a troop is going to go to the BWCA. All the boys are invited, the adults take over the organization, realize the limits, apply for the correct number of permits allowable, organize which boys/adults get assigned to each permit based on older boys helping younger boys, 2 adults on each permit, etc. etc. Notice how the word patrol can be completely omitted from the discussion? Notice how the leadership responsibilities of a big trip are shifted off the boys and onto the adults? Notice how if even there are patrols, with 8 boys and 2 adults, there's no way a full patrol with adult leadership will fit into the 9 person crew permit? These kinds of dynamics are what I would define as a troop method approach to the activity. Even if the process was adult-led patrol-method, very quickly in the discussion, there would be limits placed on the patrols simply because the 8/2 ratio is beyond the 9 person crew. Some of the patrols would need to be broken up to make it work.

 

If the patrols were indepentently operating 300' apart, there is no way troop organizational structure is going to be able to coordinate any semblence of control. The patrols 300' apart need a certain amount of autonomy just to function. This is why the patrol-method is necessary in a situation like this. To add to this, no it wouldn't be a troop activity because maybe not all the patrols have chosen to go to the activity. Maybe the venture patrol is off somewhere else that weekend doing their own hike. A troop-method unit would not have allowed that to happen, the PLC said we're going to the camporee and all patrols have to attend the camporee or else because that's what the PLC decided. Such mandates cripple a true patrol-method operation and encourage the older scouts who don't want to go to their umpteenth camporee to find something more exciting to do. If it's not cars or girls, it may in fact be a hike or a primitive campout in a national forest somewhere. Patrol method allows for this possibility, troop method does not.

 

"Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing." This happens when patrols don't organize their own independent activities. This is how troop-method units operate. The patrols are broken up for convenience sake. If the patrols were organizing their own activity this wouldn't happen. If 3 older boy patrols want to go to high adventure, they should all organize the event for themselves, the organizational leadership stays in the patrols even for special activities. I'm all in favor of making all patrols that have achieved first class for all their members be designated a venture patrol. This insures a high level of leadership, responsibility, organization and independence for the patrol, along with the perks that go along with that maturity. If all the boys are bonded together, then which is more productive, peer-pressure of getting their buddies up to snuff in the patrol for the super activities, or skimming off the cream of the crop scouts and putting them in a super-activity patrol leaving their patrolmates in the dust? I find teamwork and loyalty to buddies takes a hit everytime that happens. Nope, I'm all in favor of promoting patrol loyalties over anything else. What's the incentive to help each other out if some get perks and others get left behind? We need to go to BWCA, but Johnnie isn't first class, have swimming, first aid and canoeing MB's. As part of our planning, we need to get Johnnie ready for the trip besides caughing up $200 to go. Taking care of each other is the basis for good patrol dynamics of teamwork and loyalty. I surely don't think leaving Johnnie behind is a good way to promote the patrol-method or Scouting principle for that matter.

 

Planning on a troop level may in fact be an overwhelming task once the numbers get over 50. But planning on the patrol level is always within the skill level of any good PL. For me troop "planning" is merely writing down on a calendar what each patrol has decided it wants to do and through the PLC coordinate those activities to get the best bang out of the buck. If you have 80 boys (10 patrols) 5 want to go to BWCA and 5 want to go to summer camp, it would be good for the PLC to suggest the 5 BWCA patrols go at the same time, transportation/adult supervision if necessary and same for the 5 patrols going to summer camp. At least 4-6 adults are going to be needed to cover both activities. Do the patrols have that commitment from the resources available or are they going to need to go back and rework their agendas? Ok add to that one patrol (oldest boys, venture patrol) decide they're going to bike-hike across the state, no adults needed. They wouldn't need adult resources, and they wouldn't need to coordinate their activity with any other patrol either. Except for adults clearing their summer schedules where to they fit into any of these processes?

 

Stosh