When dads hog the Philmont trek roster...

[kahits]

I just spoke with my wife's sister, who's son is a year ahead of my son in scouting. They have, both, been in it since Tigers. My nephew's troop is set for a Philmont trek this summer, and I just found out the troop brow beat two boys out of the trek, including him, while there are 4 dad's who were allowed to remain. I know he is not that happy with the troop, but this really is unfortunate. He will probably complete his Eagle requirements, later this year, and will probably leave the troop, so there is little chance he will go back on another trek to Philmont. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I get disgusted when I hear about parents moving scouts out of these experiences, and the unit leader, apparently, not willing to do the right thing and ask two of them to step down. To even make an announcement to the troop, rather then just tell the adults they need to work it out, is a little hard to imagine.

[Gold Winger]

How were they browbeat?

[Stosh]

No matter what happens, if the boy's end up going to Philmont because they complained, they will be on the outs with the group because some other kid's dad couldn't go. This is why maybe Philmont should look into restricting the trek crews to 2 adults, 3 only if it can provide sufficient rationale for it. Being a dad isn't rationale enough.

 

My suggestions? 1) Find another troop that will be going to Philmont before your son ages out, finish his Eagle there. 2) Check with area councils, they sometimes have contingents going made up of multiple small troops, to meet the needs of boys just like your son.

 

And if your son was truly brow-beaten out of the trek, maybe the leadership of that troop should be reviewing the new advancement requirements on bullying. Bullying can come from adults just as much if not more sophisticated and harmful as it comes from other scouts.

 

Also, when your boy become Eagle, ages out, becomes a SM of his own, make sure he gets his boys to Philmont as much as possible. It's not the same as going with your buddies, but there are new buddies in scouting out there he hasn't met yet.

 

Stosh

[kahits]

The Scoutmaster made the announcement that there were 2 boys too many, signed up, to make their 08 Philmont trek, and it was necessary for 2 boys to step up and offer to take their name off the list. There was no discussion with the dads, to do the same, which is what should have happened. What is really unfortunate, is this was my brothers, son. He was a Desert Storm veteran who died of cancer when his son was not yet 3 years old. Obviously, these 4 dad's and their boys (one dad is going with 2 of his sons) were given preference, and my nephew was of lesser priority.

 

My son is on a list for my council's Philmont contingent in 09, and I have been given permission (my DE said he would back me up) to include him in my group of boys (we had 5 spots and only have 3 who can go, now, including the ASM), but I'm not sure I can convince him to do this. We are in NM and he is in NE, which is a logistical problem, but he would have another year to mature (his mother's comment, that he was probably not ready.. What boy is ready, until they start training?), and could still train with his troop's group, and then come down for the month of June, and finish up training with this contingent, before I take them up in the middle of that month. I am not going with them, but have a wonderful ASM who is, and it would be my son's chance to finally do something with his cousin, who has always been a year ahead of him in scouting since they were Tigers. I'm going to remain hopeful he will accept this option, after this unfortunate failure of the adults in his troop.(This message has been edited by kahits)

[John-in-KC]

Bottom Line:

 

This is wrong. You cut down the adults going before you cut down youth.

 

Scouting is a youth program. We need to give them the opportunities our parents gave us!

[Ohio_Scouter]

kahits,

 

Sorry to hear about your nephew's Philmont dilemma. I agree with jblake47's advice. Find another troop ASAP. We had a similar situation occur last year where one of my son's buddies troop was failing, and we invited him to come check out our troop. Best think he ever did because we got him a spot on one of our 2 Philmont crews, and he'll be doing his Eagle project with our guys in 3 weeks.

 

Another idea: advertise your dilemma on the unofficial Philmont webpage at www.philmont.com. There are a lot of great Philmont scouters there who may be able to help, too.

 

Don't give up on your nephew. IMHO, no scout should ever miss a chance to go to Philmont for any reason, especially stupid reasons.

[Vicki]

OK, so the adults are obviously in the wrong in the scenario as presented, but you also said, "he would have another year to mature (his mother's comment, that he was probably not ready.. What boy is ready, until they start training?"

 

Let's play devil's advocate for a second - you live in NM, he lives in NE. How well do you know this nephew? What if he took his name off the list with a real sigh of relief? Do you know for a fact that this wasn't a face-saving measure on the part of the SM for two scouts who didn't want to go in the first place, but were being pushed through adult expectations?

 

Just a couple of thoughts - hundreds of miles of separation can sometimes make for misunderstandings.

 

Vicki

[kahits]

Good point, Vicki... anything is certainly possible. Part of it is that she rarely lets him go camping with the troop, without her going along. Why she does that is for reasons that have to do with his place in this troop. Sure, I think this could have been one of those calls where it was just easier to step up and drop out, but leading up to that decision, I know he was very excited about going. He told me so. The flip side is this will probably be his only chance to make it to Philmont, because the troop only goes something like every 4 to 5 years, which would put him in college by then. I guess I'll find out when I hear back from her and him, as to my offer for him to go on my son's contingent. If it means what I think it once did, he will think long and hard, and ask a few more questions on how that could work. If it doesn't, then I'll know pretty quick. I guess I'm trying to at least give him another option, because what they gave him was not.

[Greg Nelson]

My son's dentist has a picture of his (I mean, his son's) Philmont trek. As I recall, it shows one dad for each kid. Now THAT'S hogging the roster!

 

I'll play devil's advocate as well here. These folks are traveling from Nebraska. They may well NEED 4 drivers to get the kids and the gear to Philmont. I suppose they could have the dads cool their heels in base camp instead of going on the trek, but that's a bit much to ask.

 

In their shoes, they're just stating facts - hey, we have 12 kids who want to go, but only 10 open spots once the 4 drivers are included. The drivers' kids are in (a perk of being willing to burn a week of your vacation time educating kids instead of sunning on the beach), leaving 5 spots for 7 kids. I would think the youngest kids get cut, unless there's an older kid with a serious lack of experience. As an adult, I'd be very leery of taking a kid to Philmont who hasn't camped without a family member along.

 

I think the idea you came up with, to take your nephew with your crew, is an excellent solution, maybe even a better idea than the boy going with his troop. It seems the mom would be far more comfortable with you than with the boy's troop leaders. His friends can tell him all about Philmont, then he'll get to experience it himself and maybe one-up them. As an added bonus, it would keep him active in Scouting for one more year.

 

If your nephew is on pace to begin his Eagle work soon, this troop can't be entirely rotten.

[Pack212Scouter]

Good point Greg. If driving I can't see a need for any LESS than 4 adults. By BSA standards that means 2 per vehicle. Each vehicle= 2 adults + 5 boys +gear.

[Oak Tree]

The troop may very well not feel comfortable sending fewer than four adults. It's hard to know without knowing a bit more about the trip logistics and the troop dynamics. It was certainly handled very badly. No way would I let more boys sign up than could go and then make some of them back out.

 

But you do not require two adults per car.

[Gold Winger]

" I suppose they could have the dads cool their heels in base camp instead of going on the trek, but that's a bit much to ask."

 

Not allowed to do that. Until the end of the season, tent city is so tightly scheduled that you can't stay in your tent even an extra hour.

 

BTW, why do you need two adults per vehicle? That's not required by BSA.

[Oak Tree]

Maybe they could take a week-long training class at Philmont Training Center. Or stay in Cimarron. They could visit Philmont every day, see the museum, buy more stuff at the trading post, attend the worship services, visit Capulin volcano, hike the several front-country trails - the more I think about it, the more fun I could have. But I agree it would be unreasonable to ask the adults to do this if it's their first trip to Philmont.

[Vicki]

GW, Oaktree - very often troops will mandate on really long trips that two adults are required per car. No, it's not BSA policy but it's perceived as a safer way to get from Point A to Point B when driving for long periods of time.

 

Just a thought, don't know if that's Greg's troop's reasoning or not.

 

Vicki

[Stosh]

Rent a 15 passenger van with a trailer hitch. Rent a trailer. Take 2 adults and maximize the number of boys on the trek. It's not a big deal.

 

Check out Amtrack. Go by train. It's never a problem with rides/gear that way. Train stops right in Cimmeron and Philmont shuttles you to base camp. Again. 2 adults, rest boys. It's not a big deal.

 

Making plans to have more than 2 adults in the group thereby making youth stay home? Now THAT IS a big deal.

 

There's no excuse available to justify having boys stay home so that adults can go. Philmont is for BOYS, the 2 adults along are only for G2SS requirements! It's time for the SM to have his priorities adjusted by the DE and/or CE. It sounds like the good-old-boys are making plans for their father/son vacation at the expense of the troop.

 

Stosh