Laser Tag mini-Camporee

[shortridge]

If alcohol were purely a safety issue it would be prohibited under any condition in scouting, but it's not.

 

Don't know if this warrants a spinoff, but has anyone ever been to an adults-only Scouting event where alcohol was served? Champagne and cookies at Roundtable? Budweiser at a council committee meeting? Jack Daniels at Wood Badge?

 

As a Scout, I attended a Roundtable or two as OA chapter chief. So alcohol would have been barred there, since I was a youth. Unless the council meeting or training session were held away from the council HQ or camp, it would have been barred there. So as a practical matter, I don't see very many chances for alcohol to be consumed.

 

(Maybe at an off-site Silver Beaver awards banquet - but no, the Scout flag-bearers would nullify it.)

[Eagledad]

>>Debating this issue based on safety is a red herring. It is not a safety issue and no amount of safety will alter the policy.

[Lisabob]

OK wait, forgive me but now I'm confused. Is laser tag now "ok?" Or is it back to "not ok?" And if the latter, did any groups actually seize the short opportunity to do laser tag while it was (briefly? 10 minutes?) within the parameters of acceptable G2SS guidelines? Seems like this issue has flip flopped more times than a politician running for election. I need a score card.

 

 

[evmori]

Apparently, Lisabob, laser tag is still a no-no! I coulda sworn there was an on-line version of the G2SS that had it removed!

[rjscout]

I had heard that it was removed, so we were going to try to use laser tag as an incentive for the Pack for popcorn sales. Looking at usscouts.org, it says that it does not keep an online version of G2SS since it is updated at BSA (scouting.org). The version there does say:

"Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized."

 

I have head of Pack doing it as a 'family' activity, but if Pack money from popcorn is used to pay for it, doesn't that make it a scouting event? Do any other Packs or Troops do Laser Tag still?

 

[packsaddle]

I have enjoyed laser tag in the past but I confess that young people have the advantage of being quick and having a much larger target.

But I agree with Bob White here. As nice as it is to think about killing people or perhaps just wounding them, and as fun as it is to pretend to do the same thing in a game or ritual, I think this is not in line with scout spirit and probably not one of the 'aims' of the program (the killing part, not the fun part).

Yes, I know I'm in a minority view. Yes, I understand that for many, the thrill of killing another person is one of the best feelings a person can ever have and that most of us think we need to teach our boys the best tactics on how to do that. It's just my HO and I disagree.

[struax]

from the following link:

 

http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS/GSSOffline.aspx

 

"Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball or dye) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Exploring program."

 

than from the "online version at

 

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss09.aspx#e

 

"Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Venturing program. "

 

does one hand know what the other hand is doing. Talk about promoting confusion and not clarity

 

So in the absence of definitiveness (sniglet at its best)i guess it is up to the Pack to decide if it wants its boys to play cowboys and indians with ray of light instead of non firing, plastic, quality looking, TOY guns that Grandpa gave them for christmas.

 

Though I agree that laser tag and paintball are fun, i also agree that it should be age-based and allowed.

 

scott

[Eamonn]

Yet again I find myself stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As a boy I played cowboys and "War". My parents bought me toy guns to play with.

While I don't think this did me any real harm, I didn't buy these sort of toys for my son.

But...

I did buy him whatever video game was the "In" at the time.

I didn't buy the games that I knew to be violent.

Maybe because I wasn't raised with real guns, never hunted or was even around real guns? I don't have the "Right to bear arms" inbred in me.

I have never played paintball or laser tag. So it might be unfair of me to go on about them one way or the other?

On one hand I do see that maybe this isn't unlike me playing cowboys with toy guns?

But on the other hand..

I work everyday with young men who have "Played" with real guns and have ended up in jail.

I'm not sure if these convicted criminals all really had a good understanding that real guns kill real people.

A lot of times when something isn't very clear we are left to look at our own standards and values to do what we think is best.

While I'm sure that paintball and laser tag is not going to turn the young people we serve into the next criminal.

I'm also sure that most kids will enjoy playing these games.

Still I'm happy knowing that it really isn't my cup of tea and isn't the sort of thing I want to pass on or teach to the youth I serve.

No matter what the rule is.

Anyone for tiddly-winks?

If it is OK?

I wish all those who opt too participate a good time.

It just isn't for me.

Eamonn.

[shortridge]

From G2SS: "Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations."

 

After reading this G2SS section and recent threads, it seemed pretty well established that paintball is generally prohibited in Scouting. I was therefore kind of surprised today to click on the Longhorn Council's HA base ad on this site and read through the leaders' guide to find this description (at the Area 51 Outpost, p. 9):

 

"Join the Earth Defense force when you arrive at Area 51. Your mission: repel an alien invasion; Your mission team will receive training and weapons: M-16 replica paintball guns with laser sights. Then move out on a night mission to find and destroy the aliens."

 

On the same page is a photo of Venturers aiming their paintball guns at a humanoid target.

 

However, I can only presume it's a Grey, not a human, so it doesn't fall under the G2SS prohibition.

 

Seriously - Anyone have any insight? Anyone been to the Texas High Adventure Base? Can councils get paintball waivers for summer camp programs? Or is the argument there really that the alien target isn't a "human representation"?

[evmori]

shortridge,

 

If you read struax's post on 9/11/2008 you will see the same document contradicts it self. Laser tag was at one time banned. Now it seems as if the BSA can't make up it's mind.

[SSScout]

Close by (?25 miles?) is what in the old days would've been called an 'amusement park". On it's several acres are some of the usual whirly-gig rides in a permanent carny area, a merry-go-round, an indoor area of video games (the "violent" games are labeled as such)and psuedo gambling games (Cyclone, push the coin over the edge, aim a coin at the hole, etc. ), two laser tag rooms, skeeball, basketball throws, an electric shooting gallery, an outdoor paintball tented yard (they supply throw away overalls and fullface goggles), a kiddy roller coaster, a more "adult" rollercoaster, a pond boat bumper car thing (in which one can squirt water "cannons" at the boaters both from the shore and the boats), and other activities of varying worth and cost.

This is not a real big place, not a Disneyland or King's Dominion.

 

I know Scout groups go here on occasion. There is a single admission charge and then seperate, additional charges for some of the bigger activities. And lots of quarter tokens for the indoor games.

 

Not only is the participation in Ltag and Pball an "image" issue, but one of expense and worth. I have watched Scouts and others wear themselves out playing Capture the Flag, Steal the Bacon, Manhunt and come away tired and smiling. I have also seen parents come away from the Amusementpark shaking their heads about the worth of the time their kids spent there. There was a teaching moment there, a discussion about hard earned bucks versus worth of activity. "Well, maybe once for the experience", is the comment I have heard.

I will be at an IOLS in a couple weeks. I will be reminding new Scout leaders about our outdoor activities, the OUT in SCOUTING. Maybe we'll go camping or hiking or rock climbing or canoeing "once for the experience".

 

I'm not saying the County Fair's carny or the Six Flags Over Someplace aren't fun things to do. Recreation and diversion is important. At the county fair a few years ago, I surprised myself (and the game operator too!) when I walked up to the "shoot out the star" game and on the first trial (100 BBs shots)won a 4 foot tall Winnie the Pooh for my son. Me, a Quaker. But I knew the secret to success at that game (researched carny games for a school essay), and had a pretty good eye back when. Wasn't so much a gamble in my case, and my son and I had a good conversation about games and guns and such as he struggled with the shapely bag of crushed foam rubber.

But should such activities as Pball and Ltag be promoted as Scout activities? I say there are more Scoutworthy places to leave our money and time, more in keeping with our avowed values and purpose.

One can always go as a private family or birthday party, but with the imprimatur of Scouting? ummmmmebbe not.

 

 

My HO.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think we need to be careful about makin' other people's value judgments for 'em.

 

If individual units don't like to go downhill skiing because they think it's too expensive and too much like a carnival ride compared with other activities, that might be a reasonable choice for that unit. I don't think that means that all scout units should be be discouraged or prohibited from goin' downhill skiing.

 

I've known units that didn't do snow campin' because the gear was expensive, and it was easier to camp in a cabin and then play outdoors. But that doesn't mean that other units shouldn't go snow campin'. And I sure know lots of people who are lookin' at council fees for da next Jambo and are thinkin' "there's a lot better things I can do with this money". Doesn't mean other folks who feel different shouldn't go to Jambo.

 

I expect same applies to other things, eh? I don't particularly find video-game lock-ins to be worthwhile, but Eagledad's troop uses 'em successfully. And of course, in most of those video games kids are dutifully blazin' away at each other with "simulated" firearms.

 

Unlike games like steal the bacon or capture the flag, I've been told LaserTag is a game where younger scouts can participate as true equals in the game with older boys. No advantage for strength or size or speed, eh? That can be valuable, especially durin' recruiting season, where webelos can be a bit scared of older boys, and find it hard to compete. Fun, friendly team work across age groups for an hour or two might be worth half a tin of popcorn to some folks.

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

evmori -

 

I know laser tag seems to be up in the air in G2SS, but I was actually inquiring about paintball, which seems to be unauthorized unless it's strictly target practice. The high adventure base in Texas has human-shaped targets.

[OldGreyEagle]

Boy Scout High Adenture Camp? In which COuncil?

[Beavah]

Yah, I think he said Texas Longhorn Council, eh?

 

http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/area51/index.htm

 

Perhaps a bit "fast" (and loose?) with da limitations on firearms scouts are supposed to be allowed, too:

 

http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/fast_draw/index.html

 

And I thought we weren't supposed to look like a paramilitary outfit:

 

http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/covert_ops/index.htm

 

:)

 

Looks like a lot of fun. Plus hatchet & spear throwin' and a few other things to boot!

 

Beavah