Laser Tag mini-Camporee

[SSScout]

Capture the Flag (adult version/international politics not withstanding) is a cool game. Almost any 'wide game' is. But the object/goal is not to ELIMINATE your opponent, merely to best them. Strategy, tactics, teamwork, vision, observation, knowledge of your opponent, knowledge of the ground all come in to play and are developed thereby. Ltag, Pball the goal is too close to the real type of 'point and shoot'. One is not shooting a target to improve ones skill. Ones goal is to KILL the other guy. Fill 'em with paint or low wattage ruby light.

Gain skill, confidence and experience and fear conquering by going the distance, living thru freezing weather, climbing rock walls, almost drowning in white water in tippy little canoes. In Rwanda and the Congo and Dafur, real children are being trained to really kill. Paint ball is too close to the real thing for my Scouts. They may eventually have to learn about the real thing, but first let's help'em to think about how to make such conflicts not happen. Past generations have not been all that successful. Is it possible to make things better without 'violence at a distance'? Or violence up close for that matter?

 

So how do the Scouts deal with bullys?

[Gold Winger]

"Gold Wing, I think you will understand the value of how Laser Tag benefits in patrol method if you just go watch one game of it."

 

Oh, I've watched it.

[Its Me]

 

 

I have played many games of laser tag and I thoroughly enjoy the game. Team work is key to obtaining the objective. The same can be said for paint ball which I have also found as great fun. If BSA took a poll I would vote both as allowable. The game of laser tag is not dangerous.

 

Funny how an organization founded by a military hero, patterned off a military patrol, with military uniforms including rank insignias is worried about a game being too close to the fire of paramilitary.

 

 

 

[spurg]

I am glad that BSA has eliminated the laser tag restriction from the unapproved list. I just wish they would do the same for paintball or at least allow it with an age restriction. Not being able to include many of these in the program is why so many in Highschool leave. It does teach teamwork and builds the program if done in a safe enviroment.

 

 

[MarkS]

The GSS on scouting.org still says, "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized."

 

Additionally, this language is present in the health and safety alert about prohibiting paintball. See http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Paintball.aspx.

 

I'd say they need to update their web site if they hadn't just done that in the last few months since this thread was started. I wonder what happened.

 

Maybe when they pair firearm with laser, they're talking about a high-energy ray gun. I don't think of the toy pistols used in laser tag as a firearm.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[shortridge]

High-energy ray guns... cool. Where do I sign up for my tricorder and phaser (set to stun)?

 

Just my opinion, but I don't see too many people leaving Scouting because paintball and laser tag are (was?) prohibited. If a Scout is that into it, all he has to do is invite members of the patrol or troop individually for an explicitly non-Scouting paintball game. Simple enough to do.

 

# # #

 

On a GSS tangent, I find it interesting that there is specific guidance on monkey bridges, but not on other types of bridges that could be equally dangerous if built incorrectly or with improper materials. Any insight?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Beavah]

Yah, shortridge, plenty of units out there takin' that line of approach, eh? One of the reasons I wish they'd get it together and drop those restrictions. Paintball and laser tag are both safer than Scouting is, so all the prohibition does is encourage people to play fast and loose with everything.

 

My memory of the monkey bridge restrictions is that they came about after a summer camp incident involvin' a bridge failure. Too much of G2SS these days is that sort of knee-jerk reaction to individual incidents. Last year we got a prohibition against water-drinkin' contests after that dumb non-scouting radio show thing out west and some Philmont reports. Year before that we got rules about cannons and artillery after an accident at an Oregon camp. Nobody was thinkin' that the new rule would mess up historical reenactment crews, but happily most are blissfully unaware of it. Year before that I think it was an incident that earned a ban on "technical tree climbing." So now lads can climb trees only without a safety line.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

As it has been explined many, many, times before, the prohibition on laser tag and paint ball is not safety related. It is about the image of scouting.

 

The national executive board has determined that there are activities that while some may see as fun, do not reflect the character of the program. Aiming and shooting at human beings is one of the things they prohibit.

 

The same is true of adults drinking alcohol when scouts are present or on BSA property. It's about the image of the program, and since it is the BSA that owns the image they get to decide what should or should not be associated with it.

 

Debating this issue based on safety is a red herring. It is not a safety issue and no amount of safety will alter the policy.

 

 

[shortridge]

Beavah - Thanks. The water-chugging item kind of puzzled me, too, but I get it now.

 

BW - I always thought that the alcohol ban WAS a safety issue. I wouldn't want people even slightly under the influence to be responsible for my child. Hiking while intoxicated could be just as dangerous as driving in certain situations, as mental and physical reaction times both slow.

 

The confusion between safety and image probably arises from the fact that the publication is titled "Guide to Safe Scouting" and refers to "the real need to protect members from known hazards." I'd read that literally, and so would most people.

 

That said, I'd have to agree that a proper game of indoor laser tag is probably less dangerous than some games of Capture the Flag. (I got clotheslined once because someone forgot to take down an axyard rope - went from running flat-out to whoomp, flat on my back. I got a lot of ribbing the next morning for my "giant hickey.")

[Bob White]

Guide to Safe Scouting happens to be where prohibited activities are listed. It probably seemed logical to put prohibited activities all in one place regardless of the reason behind them, and since most are safety issues the G2SS seems the most appropriate place to record the list does it not?

 

If alcohol were purely a safety issue it would be prohibited under any condition in scouting, but it's not.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, the term of course is "unauthorized", not "prohibited." And I reckon there's all kinds of unauthorized activities that aren't in G2SS. Like all the discussion on the Fundraisin' and Donations thread, eh?

 

The national executive board has determined that there are activities that while some may see as fun, do not reflect the character of the program.

 

Do yeh have any evidence to suggest that was a N.E.B. decision for that reason, BobWhite? Everybody I've talked to always gets cagey about it's source, but it always seemed the rule originated in Health & Safety. Da Risk Management Advisory Committee lifted the laser tag restriction, and then mysteriously got reversed.

 

IMO, the LaserTag and Paintball hobby industry would have a decent defamation case against the BSA, because it's always been portrayed as a safety issue. Even now that's true on scouting.org.

 

The pointing of firearms bit is also a red herring, given historical re-enactment being authorized.

 

Practically speakin', puttin' such stuff in G2SS only weakens the document, eh? Philosophically, fallin' into the ultra-liberal anti-toy-gun lobby also doesn't seem to sit well with most of da BSA's membership. Just a poor approach overall. Hopefully somethin' the new chief will address in the comin' year.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

"Do yeh have any evidence to suggest that was a N.E.B. decision for that reason, BobWhite?"

 

I asked the director of Risk Management while we served on a staff together.

 

Who do you talk to beavah?

[evmori]

OK So this

 

Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:55:12 -0500

Sender: Scouts-L Youth Group List

From: wendie howland

Subject: The last word on lasertag

 

All, I asked National RM for a definitive reading on this. Got the

following:

 

> "... (we have modified the online) Guide to Safe Scouting and

> removed the word "lasers" from the unauthorized activities. The

> Risk Management Advisory Panel, made up of two Scout Executives

> from each region, elected to remove the wording. This does not

> change anything regarding paintball. After two committees reviewed

> the topic in 2007, paintball is still an unauthorized activity.

 

Many thanks to them for the response, and you all have a great day!

 

never happened? Was there a change of heart? If I remember correctly, the G2SS was changed to remove the word Lasers but the current version has it! What's up?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[theysawyoucomin']

Wait somebody at National has the time and gumption to change policy on laser tag, yet we have "be active" for advancement worded and defined so lads can make a last minute appearance and make Eagle?

 

Oh I'm glad we have our priorities straight!

 

 

that really is beautiful

[theysawyoucomin']

Wait somebody at National has the time and gumption to change policy on laser tag, yet we have "be active" for advancement worded and defined so lads can make a last minute appearance and make Eagle?

 

Oh I'm glad we have our priorities straight!

 

 

that really is beautiful