Co-Ed Sleeping: What constitutes "Seperate Facilities?"

[dfousek]

Beavah, I appreciate your comments, but you can't simply rely on common sense in the face of a guideline or requirement. Absent that, of course you do what is best, but if the definition of "seperate sleeping facilities" is a hard wall, for instance, and you use a plastic sheet, I don't care what YOUR common sense tells you, if someone makes an issue, YOU will lose. I am looking for by BSA legal position on the matter. If they don't have one, fine.

[dfousek]

Regarding the plastic sheet or blanket, the statement from the G2SS has to do with seperating adults from youth. What about seperate adult males from adult females?

[Beavah]

Beavah, I appreciate your comments, but you can't simply rely on common sense in the face of a guideline or requirement. Absent that, of course you do what is best, but if the definition of "seperate sleeping facilities" is a hard wall, for instance, and you use a plastic sheet, I don't care what YOUR common sense tells you, if someone makes an issue, YOU will lose. I am looking for by BSA legal position on the matter. If they don't have one, fine.

 

They don't have one.

 

They never have one (at least not for this sort of thing, eh? ).

 

The BSA is not a government. Their guidebook is not a legal document. It's just a guidebook. There's nothing to "lose". Someone can complain to your CO, or to your council, and your CO might tell you "Hey, don't do that again", or your council might say "Hey, yeh might have tried this instead, that's what some folks do." Is that "losing"? If so, OK, but it doesn't seem like a big deal .

 

I think if someone makes an issue of something, yeh do what any good leader would do. Listen to 'em, and consider their point of view, and make a change if it seems reasonable. You'd do that for someone anyways, right? Even if yeh were following the guidebook but they were uncomfortable?

 

Sounds like you might be helped by a local perspective, though. Why don't yeh ask the Little Rock for the contact information for a couple of other packs and troops that have visited, and call their leaders to find out how they handled it? I'm sure both the Little Rock staff and your fellow local scout leaders will be happy to help. Or yeh can ask at your Round Table this month!

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

In my experience, most of these things are written the way they are because there are a ton of people who mistakenly believe that they possess enough common sense to make good judgements.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean and I'm sympathetic to this point. Everyone believes their judgement is above average.

 

We had this discussion recently with regards to the Eagle application process. People kept wanting to add steps and checkpoints in the process to reduce the likelihood of someone screwing up and showing up for the Eagle BoR with a substandard package. But in the end you reach a point of diminishing returns. You're adding paperwork for 99 people in order to help the 1 who doesn't have enough sense to do it right in the first place.

 

I think it's the same thing here. You can get overly prescriptive with those who have good judgement, just to protect those who don't. And in the end, most people realize they need to make judgement calls anyway. I'd prefer to see the G2SS acknowledge that up front. Most troops do drive after dark.

 

Our troop is going skiing and is going to stay one night in a giant room that includes other groups. Do we demand separate sheeted off areas for adults and Scouts and an entirely separate room for women? Our pack is going to an aquarium for a sleepover. I'm not sure what the aquarium provides, but I'm betting on one big room. Do we ask for another room as well as some sheets and strings? I'm thinking if we just ask everyone to change clothes in private (or not at all), we'll be ok.

 

One large room for Cub Scout packs doesn't seem like the situation that the G2SS has in mind in the discussion of dormitory arrangements. I'll go with the spirit of the law on this one.

[dfousek]

Oak Tree, very good comments. I am not trying to be a stick in the mud, and.....

 

I am also very conscious of the court system. If in your aquarium situation one of the mothers on the trip inadvertenly sees a clothing malfunction, and it goes to court, the first question asked will be if the troop/pack followed prescribed rules and guidelines. That would be, in everything I have read so far, at a minimum of hanging a blanket or sheet. So the judge would ask, "Did you do that." With the answering being no, and with the simplicity of doing such a thing in most cases (i.e., hanging a rope and draping a sheet), I gotta believe you lose that lawsuit. And who is going to pay for that???

 

Common sense can be thrown around all we want, but for those that want to use that, please critique the above scenario right to the point. Do you think it would play out as I prescribed IF it went to court. Yes or No.

 

It would be great if a lawyer in this forum would comment on this, one who deals with harrassment law.

 

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, now you've done it. :-) Search on the word 'insurance' in 2007 posts and you'll see many conversations on this topic. Many, many conversations. Way too many conversations.

 

To answer your question in brief, no, I do not think it would play out as you have described.

 

Here's one conversation to look at: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=150912#id_150912

[dfousek]

Oak Tree. Thanks. I read the other string. Notice the big "CAVEAT LECTOR" at the bottom. Why the need to put that if we have nothing to fear legally? Just the thought alone of having a "situation" with kids and I am one of the adult leaders, makes me very uncomfortable.

 

Let's put this to bed (pun intended). Happy scouting to all.

[Beavah]

Common sense can be thrown around all we want, but for those that want to use that, please critique the above scenario right to the point. Do you think it would play out as I prescribed IF it went to court. Yes or No.

 

Yah, courts are funny things, and there are many differences in law between states. So nobody who's competent or ethical is goin' to venture a formal legal opinion in an on-line forum, eh? All we can discuss in a more general, educative way are da principles of jurisprudence.

 

That havin' been said, "no."

 

There are a number of elements to establishin' negligence, and the scenario you describe doesn't really have any of 'em. Nor does it seem to have any damages. Just not a civil case to be had.

 

Have fun on your trip. Fear no legal boogeymen.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

Clothing malfunction???

 

Since you seem never to have attended any zoo/museum/cave/aquarium/battleship sleepover, or a lock-in in a gym/hall, and are paranoid that one of your families will sue you personally, why go?

 

If someone is sue happy, they will sue you no matter what you do. Why subject yourself to even the possibility of a lawsuit? Scrap the overnight and take the families for a hike instead.

 

Of course there is always the possibility of someone slipping and falling (where were the buddies!), not being able to keep up (hazing-everyone ran away!) or tearing their clothes and/or having a "clothing malfunction" (appropriate attire for the event was not worn!) on a hike too.

 

On second thought, maybe you should all just stay home.

 

 

[ElyriaLeader]

150,000 yards of bubble wrap to surround scouts with so no one falls and hurts themselves - $5,000

25 pairs of glasses with side blinders to keep all participants eyesight focused straight ahead - $2,500

1 case of being overly concerned about the legal "boogeyman" and thus removing all vestiges of "fun" from the outing that could have been? - Priceless!

 

[DYB-Mike]

Is the USS Little Rock sleepover a Council sponsored event? If so, I believe that affords you some protection in the event of problems.

 

Has your Pack Committee discussed the event and shared all the details, including the sleeping arrangements, with the parents? If some are uncomfortable they can opt not to attend.

 

Our Pack has done sleepovers on battleships (USS Massachusetts, sleeping like the sailors in hammocks), museums (Boston Museum of Science and Plymouth Plantation, both very popular, folks bed down all over the floors of the exhibit halls), and cabins. All of these have seen mixed sleeping arrangements with male and female leaders and parents, the boys, and sometimes siblings (boy/girl) all together in a large space. In the case of the museum and battleship, all Council sponsored events with separate rest room/changing facilities, we were participating with many other packs and troops. In the cabins sheets and tarps were used to make privacy areas for changing. In all these cases we havent had any problems with impropriety, only my snoring (well, not JUST me).

 

In our Pack's case no one person was making a common sense decision on his or her own. With all these events our Pack Committee and Leaders discussed the details and options, shared this information with the parents, and I guess you could say a common sense by consensus decision was made concluding that, by attending the event, the benefit to the boys would far outweigh the potential for problems. If someone complains later on, they cannot deny that they were unaware of what they were getting into.

 

I concede that this is a litigious age we live in but, as it has been said in this thread, you cant foresee every danger. If we worried about every eventuality the boys would do nothing. I agree that good common sense is key, but a fully informed pack is also important. MOST people are not unreasonable as long as they know what theyre getting into and can prepare for it.

 

It seems a shame that the boys have to suffer for adult paranoia. If the sleepover is anything like our USS Massachusetts experience, theyll have a ball.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[Vicki]

"Clothing malfunction!" - I nearly spit out my coffee!! Thinking about all the clothing malfunctions I have had the opportunity to "not see" on campouts.

 

Oh my, thanks for that one!

 

Hey, and Beavah, one more string to show up in that "how weird can liability questions get" search, eh? I don't think this one trumps blue cards though.

 

Vicki