Tour Permits

[Eamonn]

I do use Tour Permits.

At times I''m very late getting them into the Council Service Center, thankfully the staff in the office are very helpful and with a working fax machine we can do what needs to be done in a matter of minutes.

The rules about Tour Permits in our Council are not very clear.

At one time the Council stated that they were needed for every trip that was not outside of the regular meeting place.

The Council Service center was unhappy when the volume of tour permits went through the roof.

Every Den that was going to the local Post Office or fast food restaurant started sending these things in.

Then the Council President made it known that they were only required for trips that were 50 miles or more from home.

 

My big question is what use are Tour Permits?

I do see and do agree that as a tool for planning they are useful.

But...

In our Council one of the office workers takes care of Tour Permits.

None of the information provided is ever checked.

In fact a lot of the information can''t be checked.

Never once has anyone ever asked to see the permit in order to leave a comment.

I was once told that a tour permit was useful if something should go wrong.

I''m unsure how this might work?

99.9% of the trips we take are at weekends when the Council Service Center is not open, if you call you can leave a message on the machine, which isn''t going to be checked until Monday.

Most SE''s only provide the phone number of the Service Center, so trying to contact them would not be easy.

 

At the end of the day just about everything comes down to me (As Skipper) making sure that everything is done.

All the drivers do have valid diving licenses and insurance and that all the needed training''s have been completed.

The permit does remind me what is needed, but if no one is checking??

There is supposed to be a time and distance when the National Jamboree is going on when permits will not be issued. The parents who came to visit us at the 2001 and 2005 Jamboree said they had a hard time finding motel rooms because the motels were full of Scouts.

They had a hard time using the swimming pools because the Scouts were there, with no Lifeguard on duty and at times no adults to be seen.

I go out of my way to be nice to the girls who work in our service center. They have an Eamonn File. In it I have all the training''s I have taken and I update them as needed, they have the information about all my vehicles and insurance, a copy of my driving license along with the information about the people who do most of the driving. If someone else is helping I send them that information and it goes into the file.

I do this because we are supposed to do it.

I''m just not sure why? And what real use other than a planning tool a Tour Permit really is.

Of course I''ll continue to do it. I don''t want to set a bad example to the Scouts and maybe? Just maybe there is more to this than I''m understanding?

Ea.

 

 

[eisely]

Since I raised the tour permit subject on the other thread, I guess I should comment here.

 

My impression of the whole tour permit process is that it is often haphzardly administered at both the unit and council level. Focusing on the council for a moment, I note that our council is trying to discourage tour permits being filed for many mundane activities, but giving more serious scrutiny to those that are submitted. For one thing, they check their electronic files to see if the named adults have gone through Youth Protection Training.

 

For many experienced responsible adult leaders, tour permits are something of a nuisance. That does not diminish the potential value of the tour permit concept as a risk management tool, particularly where new leaders are involved. Many of the most serious incidents one hears about involve situations where safey policies were not being followed, often through ignorance. One is left to wonder what the adults involved were thinking of, or if they were thinking at all. My view of the tour permit process is that it raises the level of awareness of safety policies with adult leaders who might otherwise err with serious consequences for all concerned.

 

The tour permit process also provides councils with a possible means of passing liability to irresponsible adults. It would very easy to lie about most of the information that a tour permit requires. It also is very easy to take boys on an outing without a tour permit if nobody is watching. Having a sensible and enforced tour permit policy in place at least provides the organization an ability to check on and enforce its own rules. It also spreads responsibility at the unit level since someone on the unit committee has to approve the permit too.

[scottteng]

I second Eamonn''s comments about being nice to the office people they put up with all of us and their bosses too. I cautioned on another thread of the drawbacks of burying anyone in paperwork. That is one of the ways unions strike is the work to rule things eventually everything grinds to a standstill. Hey maybe that would work with congress we will follow every inane rule they enact to the letter. Our rule of thumb is no transport, no overnite, within council no permit. If you are getting parents to bring their own kids, not camping and local. For example we had a fundraiser with a minor league baseball team the boys sold tickets to their family and friends and presented the colors before the game. We did not meet at our C.O. and carpool everyone down their we met there at the game did our thing enjoyed the game and the nice fireworks show afterwards then everyone went home. Tour permits are to encourage you to be prudent and for the council to have a idea of what troop was where. That way when J.Q. Public comes to them and says I was at XYZ campground last weekend and a group of boy scouts TP''d my RV they may or may not be able to figure out who it is and who to call on the carpet. Or the converse I was at XYZ campground last week and a group of boy scouts helped my ailing wife back to our RV here is a contribution for $1000 we know who the kudo''s belong too.

[troutmaster]

Perhaps I have been mis-informed for years, but I thought one of the primary reasons for the permit was to make sure that you are covered by the umbrella insurance should something really severe occur, heaven forbid. My understanding was that the permit made the local and National councils part of the liability envelope. As an additional aside, they do require them at some out of council camps in our area, just to use them; and they do check. Also, permits are required for many high adventure awards, and cannot be obtained without a valid, on file, number. At least that is what is done here in Southern California.

[GernBlansten]

Our council does a quick check to see if the number of seat belts exceeds the number of attendees. They then check to make sure there is some scribbling on each signature line. Other than that, there is no futher checks. I often wondered if you put the names of the seven dwarfs on the permit and put the destination as "Hell in a handbasket" that they would catch that.

[Its Me]

 

Scotteng, seems to nail it. The permit is to let council know what troop was where when. Note all past tense.

 

troutmaster where did you read that a permit is an insurance coverage instrument?

 

 

[nldscout]

You are covered by BSA insurance for liability no matter whet you do, as long as its an officially sponsored trip/event. TP or no TP.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Eamonn, my experience is da same as yours, in several councils.

 

Tour permits are recorded by some very nice ladies who also run the scout shop. They are very friendly about handling all of us late-to-file guys because at most they scan to make sure we didn''t leave any lines blank. I''m sure any troop could write that they intended to shoot kids and still get approved. Lots of units just submit their entire roster of drivers for every event rather than try to figure out who''s really goin'' in advance.

 

My current council like yours is one that gave up on the tour permit volume. Ours won''t event accept any tour permit for a destination within the council service area - somethin'' like 6,000 square miles. A few councils use local tour permits for travel to Canada because they''re so close.

 

Practically I guess the only real use for Tour Permits is as a vague planning document to help new leaders out. It''s OK at that, eh? Points out SSD, SA, CPR requirements; reminds folks of G2SS and the Wilderness Use Policy; makes ''em at least think about two-deep, adequate supervision, and the risks of drivin''. Not bad. As a Commish, I''ve used ''em lots of times as and aide for helping inexperienced leaders work through the planning steps.

 

Only downside is the urban legend stuff like what troutmaster posted, freakin'' out guys like Joe who are just trying to do something nice for a few hard-working kids after a service project.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

What''s the purpose of a tour permit? Probably to let you council know where you are taking your unit & supposedly to ensure the proper traveling procedures are followed.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[allangr1024]

Although I cannot find it in my BSA literature, I am sure we were told at Basic Scout Leader Training and at Woodbadge that you must file a tour permit to be covered by BSA insurance. We were further told that if you stray from anything written in the Guide to Safe Scouting, you would not be covered if anything bad happens. This was especially true of water activities. And the Guide says to file a tour permit.

 

I cannot say what checking they do. We are allowed to have a list of our drivers on file, so we do not fill this out every month. I would hope they check the names of our registered leaders, but I cannot say they do. I am a new scoutmaster, and I have not seen any mail from our council. I think they keep sending stuff to the last scoutmaster.

 

That is a good question for roundtable.

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Surely if it was the case that BSA would hang a leader out to dry if they failed to file a LTP or follow G2SS, there would be cases where one could point to. Has this ever happened? Sounds to me like a scare tactic used by council trainers but without teeth.

[troutmaster]

Okay, let us see if I can be clearer. As noted by another, the idea that the LTP is optional is not given by any of the training materials used in our area. Now, whether or not it would be a reason not to be covered is questionable at best based on the volunteer protection policies; but it certainly makes it easier to prove intent to follow logical rules and so on. I cannot find anything specific about the permit itself, but there is some detail on the insurance and licensing requirements that are part of the permit.

 

In our area though, as noted in the earlier post, some councils will not allow you in their camps without a permit. And the high adventure awards absolutely require permits being on file. And, of course, someone outside the troop having a vague idea at least as to where you are supposed to be is always helpful should emergencies or questionable events occur in relation to the outing.

 

Frankly, I do not understand why anyone would have a real problem with this requirement any way. It seems to me to be a prudent aid to assuring the i''s are dotted and the t''s crossed in regard to travel.

 

JMHO

[Eagle69]

That is a myth that you are not covered by Insurance if you fail to file a Tour Permit. You leave yourself open to more questions, but if you were doing everything else correctly then BSA will cover you.

[GernBlansten]

Perhaps the question should be asked differently.

When would the BSA insurance not cover a scout leader?

I can think of only one instance...criminal behavior. Say the leader took the boys to knock over the Piggly Wiggly and one of the scouts sprained his ankle on the get away and the parents sued the leader. Same with your household policy. If you shoot someone while you are committing a crime and they sue you for damages, don''t expect your homeowners insurance to protect you.

 

What would nullify your BSA coverage?

 

Bad luck? nope.

Stupidity? Nope.

Gross negligence? Unless its criminal.

Ignorance of the G2SS? Nope.

Indifference to the G2SS? Nope. But they might revoke your membership.

[Eamonn]

Not sure about what happens in other Councils?

Sadly in our Council keeping track of adult training''s has never been a strong point.

The volunteers who present the training''s do what they are supposed to do. All the paperwork is completed and send to the Service Center.

Where it must go into some kind of black hole, never to be seen again!!

Back when I was Council Training Chairman one of my "Big Things" was to have an inventory of trained leaders.

The District Training Chairs worked their tails off to make me a happy little Eamonn.

I know it doesn''t sound like a big job, but when you try and deal with units that never take anyone off a charter it was a real chore.

Once we had all the information, the girls in my office put it all together. We had copies for just about everyone you can think of, in just about every format known to man. We had it on paper and on floppy disk.

Still when the charters came out nothing had been entered or changed. It seems the Registrar didn''t see this as being part of her job, as it happens nor did the next two!!

I''m not for a minute saying "Don''t file the paperwork!!"

But I do feel or would feel better knowing why? And what good is it?

I think the world of the Scouts in the Ship.

I''m not going to allow them to be driven by some nut who doesn''t have a valid driving license or insurance.

I know the people who offer to drive and don''t have a problem asking them for a copy of their license or insurance.

No one has ever given me a hard time for asking or had a problem with my making a copy.

While I''m not a great lover of on line training (Other than the fact that it doesn''t have the myths) I almost gladly am willing to give up the time it takes to complete what ever is needed.

I do keep my First Aid and CPR up to date. I have to for work and it seems that CPR changes from minute to minute.

When we attend an event outside of our Council, I''m happy to provide what ever tour permit is required.

I have no idea what they do with them?

I''m happy to meet all the requirements, I want the Scouts to be safe.

Doing the paperwork is not hard and I''m not fussing about the time or effort it takes.

But if most of the information can''t be verified -What real use is it?

Ea.