Earrings

[Bob White]

DD,

My apologies for not defining the people and processes that determine the program and policies of the BSA. Here is an excellent explanation. the entire article can been read on

You'll note that the bulk of the decision making at the national level is done by adult and youth vounteers representing Charteriing Organizations and Scout Units throughout the country.

 

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scouting/rec.scouting.issues/section-16.html

 

 

The NEB is composed of between 48 and 52 adult

members and three to five youth members. This board meets every other month

to discuss and finalize recommendations made by the various Group Directors,

their volunteer Committees, or by individual Board members or the Chief

Scout Executive. There are seven professionals whom are members of this

board: the Chief Scout Executive, the four Regional Directors (whom also

serve as Associate Chief Scout Executives), the National Director of

Operations and the National Director of Support Services. These

professionals do NOT have a vote but they are, as you can guess, very

influential in the decision-making ability of this body. The rest of the

Board is composed of volunteers whom are key business, industry, civic and

religious leaders from all parts of the nation and all walks of life. To

keep a youth slant on the actions, the National Chief of the Order of the

Arrow, the National Explorer President, and up to three other youth leaders

(selected by their peers or through a national competition of some sort) are

voting members of the NEB.

 

The Chief Scout Executive serves as the "secretary" to the Board and his or

her performance is tied to overall program success. The National Executive

Board "hires" and "fires" the CSE and all other national-level senior

professionals.

 

Youth boards also make a significant impact on the adoption of national

policies and procedures. The Assembly of Chiefs, the section and regional

chiefs along with the National Chief and National Vice-Chief of the Order of

the Arrow (assisted by two professionals and six adult volunteers) make

policy and recommendations for the Order of the Arrow, Scouting's national

honor camping society.

 

Finally, the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America serves as the

final "stamp of approval" on all significant changes to the program of the

BSA. The National Council is composed of at least three representatives from

each of the BSA's local Councils: The Council President, Council

Commissioner, and one other elected representative.

The Council Executive is not a member.

Two or more (depending on size of the local Council)

volunteers are elected yearly to serve as National Council Representatives,

a job that nowadays carries more weight than it used to.

The National Council meets as a whole body once a year.

 

As you can probably figure out by all of this, whatever the National Exec

Board approves, more than likely will be approved by the National Council

after it has already been implemented in their local Councils. This is also

the reason why when new programs are announced, SOME local Councils

delay implementing it until a national vote is taken on the program change or

other issue.

 

Those are the bodies that make up the decision-making ability of the BSA.

While we're talking about professional management of various committees and

boards, we're also talking about volunteers --you and me-- making up those

boards and committees, with a larger say than the professionals and

reflecting our Council's make-ups and population.

 

 

[Dedicated Dad]

Those definitions are written in every Boy Scout Handbook. Bob, where does it say the part about allowing body piercing and hair length? Where? This is youre answer: The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Is this not your interpretation for allowing these behaviors? The Scout Oath and Scout Law are defined by the Boy Scouts of America not by the Chartering Organization. With all due respect to your many years in service, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand the CO cant make interpretations of the Oath and Law for matters not specified in any rules and regs but its OK for you to? That is arrogance beyond belief, why can you make interpretations and the CO CANT?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

DD,

 

"the principles of the Boy Scouts of america are found in the Scout Oath, The Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout Slogan. You will be expected to live by these standards while you are a Boy Scout. " The Official Boy Scout Handbook page 45, first paragraph, requirement 7 of the Tenderfoot Rank.

 

Don't slay the messenger just because you don't like the message.

 

 

[Dedicated Dad]

Bob, thanks for copying and pasting that lengthy NEB organizational chart but it has no information to my query. You said: the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature. My question is specifically, who is THE BSA PROGRAM in the case of the CO who abused? i.e. BSA Program vs. Abusing CO in this particular case? Is it National, Council, District or what? And, what cases can you cite that the BSA Program has litigated against said COs, and assumably won, to advance the Scout in opposition to COs membership regulations against long hair and piercings? I hope Ive been clear this time. Don't slay the messenger just because you don't like the message. More interpretation? How odd? It seems Im reading verbatim out of the SM handbook and the best you can offer is interpretation for what? Where is the reg that says specifically long hair, body piercings are OK!!! Where! Theres no message here, yet again; Im just wondering where you get this stuff? Mine is on page 139 and it says: Unit Membership

Article XI, section, clause 8, of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America provides a Scouting Unit with the authority to determine its own youth membership. It reads: Scouting units are small, intimate groups. In the Cub Scout and Boy Scouts programs, the units are made up of even smaller groups, dens, and patrols, which often meet regularly in private homes. So long as they are faithful to Scouting's membership philosophy, set forth below, it is for the unit to determine on the basis of considerations such as group size or youth behavior whether to admit or to continue the membership of a youth member.

It is the philosophy of the Scouting movement to welcome all boys and young people, regardless of race or ethnic background, who are willing to accept Scouting's values and meet other requirements of membership. Young people of all religious backgrounds are welcomed in Scouting, some participating in units for youths of a particular religion and the greater majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

DD,

the question you ask "Who is the BSA program is flawed. "what is the BSA program" would be more accurate. As I tried to show you in that admittedly lengthy post is that the BSA program is determined by Representatives of the scouts, scouters and Chartering organizations who use the program.

 

You ask Where is the reg that says specifically long hair, body piercings are OK!!!

 

There isn't one, nor is there a rule that says they are not OK. the rule that does exist and that was sited early on is that you cannot "add to" or "subtract from" any requirement in the advancement program.

 

So no one has to show you any advancement rule other than the ones in the Boy Scout Handbook. And not you, or any of us, can add or subtract from those regulations. (see the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manial page-4 Implementing Procedures)

 

All I'm saying is let's play by the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules that's fine, but no one is forcing you to play. But if you can violate scoutings rules what does that say to the scouts in your care?

 

As I said before, don't sign the advancement if you don't want to. But unless you followed the rules of the program the Scout will be advanced by the appeals Board of Review.

 

Bob

[Bob White]

DD

 

I forgot to include this point that you asked me to address.

 

you sited form article

So long as they are faithful to Scouting's membership philosophy, set forth below, it is for the unit to determine on the basis of considerations such as group size or youth behavior whether to admit or to continue the membership of a youth member.

 

This is exactly what I said before. Within the scout boundaries (Scouting's membership philosophy) the CO can determine membership (admit or to continue the membership) of the scouts.

 

Notice this does not allow The CO or the adult leaders to alter the advancement requirents. It allows the CO admit or remove scouts from membership.

 

Thank you for supplying the appropriate by-law.

 

Bob

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Am I playing Baden-Powell by saying "Here is the BSA program according to the BSA, we should follow it".

 

It is when the policy or rule in question ("according to the BSA") is not clearly defined, and you pretend that your slant on it is the only possible correct interpretation while claiming everyone else is "just not playing by the rules".

 

The Scout Oath and Scout Law are defined by the Boy Scouts of America not by the Chartering Organization. Those definitions are written in every Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Yes, BSA wrote the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. However, how a Scout fulfills the Oath and the Law is defined in a manner, which in many areas is open for interpretation.

 

For the Scout Law, it simply says - "Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points." You don't see how a Scoutmaster could have room for interpretation when the Scout Law merely says - "Be reverent"? Likewise for every other point of the Scout Law, there is no clear-cut definition for any of these precepts.

 

Concerning the Oath, BSA is clearer, at least in regard to one's "duty to God", but their words do not support your claim. The handbook dictates that the Scout should follow the teachings of his religious leaders.

 

. . . To do my duty to God . . . Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

 

In my example, "shaving one's face" was a religious duty proclaimed by the Scout's religious leaders. So how can a Muslim Scout (in my cited example) show that he is reverent (according to BSA) when his spiritual leaders, his chartering organization, and his Scoutmaster believe he is not? What specific BSA criteria in the Oath or the Law override the values of the chartering organization and the Scoutmaster? How can the Scoutmaster be faithful to the chartering organizations values, when the Scout in question is defying a tenant of the faith? Please be specific.

 

So far, your arguments have not convince me. Each faith has its own standards for being reverent. BSA acknowledges that fact. There is no contradiction here between the Oath, the Law, and the chartering organizations beliefs. You have elevated the Oath and Law above the Scout's religion. Additionally, you are implying there are definitions for the same that are not written anywhere. The Oath and the Law should be used to re-enforce the Scout's faith, not contradict it. By claiming the chartering organization (assuming the CO is a church or some other religious organization) has no say in its interpretation, you put the two at odds. Furthermore, as I showed in my other example, I believe that this argument can be extended to other, non-religious organizations (American Legion, etc.). Why would an American Legion sponsor a troop if boys were permitted to contradict their values? It's the Scoutmaster's job to reflect the chartering organization's values and to ensure the Scouts in the troop are living by them.

 

I still don't understand why some posters find the recommendation of using the program so offensive, or why some feel using the program so difficult.

 

The program is not offensive. Claiming you know the unadulterated truth, and inferring that those opposing you are against the program, is offensive. Your BSA references and quotes have not been definitive, but your interpretations of them have been. You are not the only one can read and analyze BSA policy.

 

[Bob White]

Rooster7,

You continue to misrepresent what I have said. I see no need to itemize those exampples because they are documented in this thread.

 

I will however call to task one thing from your last post.

You asked...

You don't see how a Scoutmaster could have room for interpretation when the Scout Law merely says - "Be reverent"? Likewise for every other point of the Scout Law, there is no clear-cut definition for any of these precepts.

 

I invte everyone to Open the Boy Scout Handbook to pages 47 through 54 under the title The Meaning of the Scout Law and tell me there is no clear explaination of what the points of the Law mean.

 

"So far, your arguments have not convince me. I'm not trying to argue questions were raised in this thread tah many have attempted to answer. Some through past experiences, some through personal opinion, some through references to Boy Scout of America publications. Again, I doubt that anyone changes their way of scouting based on anything that any of us have written. You are certainly not going to change from anything I write, or I from your posts. I will continue to share the BSA Program as it is represented in the BSA Handbook and other offical manuals. I trust in the ability of the post readers to choose their path. In my opinion (not found in any specific manual) I have found that the scouts I've served have enjoyed and benefited from the Scouting program, not my interpretation of it, but the program as it is set by the Boy Scouts of America.

 

I wish you and your scouts the same success.

 

Bob

 

[NJCubScouter]

OK, DedicatedDad, you claimed that a discussion of earrings in the "Traditional Values" thread in "Issues and Politics" would be redundant, presumably because of this thread. So let me ask you this:

 

What value -- not just a tradition, but a value, is violated if a boy wears:

 

An earring?

 

"Long" hair?

 

Purple hair?

 

Facial makeup?

 

You don't need to answer for your other examples, just these. And let me throw in an example: A boy with a shaved head. Does that violate any values?

 

What values are violated by any of these things?

 

 

[Rooster7]

Okay Bob, I give. Perhaps I am just missing your point. I see no sense in beating this thing any further. Whether or not we agree, I wish you the same success.

[Quixote]

DD - just a question - sorry for butting in, but you keep referring to hair length and having a pierced ear as a behavior. I think this is the point of contention that everyone is having - some people don't see hair length or having an earring as a behavior.

 

Assuming your hair is cut short, can i say you are behaving well? And if you hair is long that you are not behaving well?

 

YIS

Quixote

 

 

[Dedicated Dad]

the question you ask "Who is the BSA program is flawed. "what is the BSA program" would be more accurate. Not really, you clarified it nicely at the end of your post, its a who and it is the appeals Board of Review, now all you have to do is tell me who sits on it and where its cited in the SM handbook. There isn't one, nor is there a rule that says they are not OK. the rule that does exist and that was sited early on is that you cannot "add to" or "subtract from" any requirement in the advancement program. Lets see here, we have two mutually exclusive points here. One, if a rule doesnt exist, like there is no rule against incest or as the Honorable Justice Scalia pointed out in Dale v. BSA there are not rules against ax murderers either, is there a need for one? I would contend, no because the BSA is a Traditional Values based organization and piercing, long hair, make-up ,lipstick or wearing dresses are not considered Traditional Values, surely we can agree on that. Second, I think we should examine your mistaken assertion that Membership Requirements are actually Rank Requirements. I think the first clue we have is they have two different names and therefor arent the same. Next, we can see they have two completely separate segments in the SM handbook, which give two completely different directives and therefor cannot be at odds with each other. If the Scout fails to meet Membership Requirements he may be, hopefully as a last resort, dismissed from the troop and is not member in good standing. If he is not in good standing he may not apply for rank advancement, thats putting the cart before the horse. See Membership Requirements. All I'm saying is let's play by the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules that's fine, but no one is forcing you to play. Increasingly its becoming apparent that you think this is some kind of game, I only wish you could accept the rules as they are written and not your personal interpretation. But if you can violate scoutings rules what does that say to the scouts in your care? Well as long as we dont have you pretending rules are being broken I see no consequences at all. As I said before don't sign the advancement if you don't want to. But unless you followed the rules of the program the Scout will be advanced by the appeals Board of Review. And as I asked twice before, Im glad youve finally helped me define who makes the precedent in cases like this. In the appeals Board of Review who has ruled in favor of your interpretation of the rules, and where can I find a reference for these rulings? How often have they ruled in favor of your interpretation? I forgot to include this point that you asked me to address. This is exactly what I said before. Within the scout boundaries (Scouting's membership philosophy) the CO can determine membership (admit or to continue the membership) of the scouts. Notice this does not allow The CO or the adult leaders to alter the advancement requirents. It allows the CO admit or remove scouts from membership. Bob, Im sorry but Im completely confused how you made the leap from Membership Requirements to Advancement requirements again. Are you saying a policy against long hair and piercings, et al is in conflict with the Scouting's membership philosophy?If so, what are legal policies that encompass the youth behavior clause, and how are body piercings, long hair, tattoos, and lipstick considered a race and ethnic background issue?

[Dedicated Dad]

What value -- not just a tradition, but a value, is violated if a boy wears: An earring? "Long" hair? Purple hair? Facial makeup? Hmm Lets see. To start but not exclusive to, modesty, humility, propriety, politeness/decorum, good taste/etiquette and temperance/restraint kind of values. Further, Traditional Values is an analogy of conservative orthodoxy, and I know you and tjhmmr stand ready to chime in with your glib relativists slant on the issue, and youre certainly more than welcome to do so, but this is a conservative doctrine and will be after your liberal analogies. Now its your turn, I played fair, how are said behaviors Traditional Values?

[Bob White]

DD

 

You are a poor converstionalist who apparently likes to twist and convolute other people's statements in order to prolong a question that was long ago answered. The answers to your question, when you actually have a direct question, are in the manuals of the BSA, I invite you to read one, any one. In them you will find the answer, which I guarantee you will not like because it will not match your personal opinion. I am no longer interested in the bait you are dangling on your twisted hook. I take comfort in knowing the fish is keener than the fisherman.

 

I wish you luck in whatever you actually do in scouting,

Bob White

[Dedicated Dad]

 

but you keep referring to hair length and having a pierced ear as a behavior. Yes, both are the manners of conduct involving an action taken, or not taken as in the case of long hair. I think this is the point of contention that everyone is having - some people don't see hair length or having an earring as a behavior. Im not sure everyone is having a point of contention, it may seem Im alone here because most arent willing to debate the high percentage of shall we say progressive Scouters on this site. Assuming your hair is cut short, can i say you are behaving well? And if you hair is long that you are not behaving well? Its irrelevant to the point, if a CO decides it wants to make requirements for appropriate behavior, its within its rights to do so. Personally I think long hair is appropriate for native Americans should they desire to wear it that way. Equally personally, I see piercing as self-mutilation, regardless of degree, and a character flaw in its adornment of the male species.