Earrings

[sctmom]

As a female leader am I allowed to wear my earrings when in uniform?

Am I allowed to wear makeup? Or let's look at the flip side -- maybe I should HAVE TO wear makeup because that is the "standard" for women in the United States?

 

I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. I like Bob.

 

[Dedicated Dad]

As a female leader am I allowed to wear my earrings when in uniform? Am I allowed to wear makeup? Are you suggesting that boys and girls are the same? Or let's look at the flip side -- maybe I should HAVE TO wear makeup because that is the "standard" for women in the United States? Just curious, how could a woman wearing make-up be considered against traditional values?

 

BTW OGE, do you usually make decisions based on "feelings" you can't defend, is that a good idea?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dad, I often have feelings I cant defend, I am attracted to my wife and I love her. Many other beautiful women exist in the world. and why I love this one, I cant defend, I only know I do, without any rational explanation, its all about how she makes me "feel".

 

On a much much much much less important note, I just bought a car, I had a few different models in mind and I selected the one I "felt" best about. All the models had similar repair records, had the same attributes and price. If you asked me why I picked A over C, I couldnt tell you, I just picked the one I felt "best" about. And if you want to get into the color my wife and I picked out, well, thats a long story based on nothing but emotion and feelings and I guess we didnt use much logic there either.

 

One of the best qualities about humans IMHO (thats three times now) is they are able to feel things and are not slaves to rational and logical thought, and I would rather be a human than a Vulcan.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Dedicated Dad]

and why I love this one, I cant defend, I selected the one I "felt" best about. Thats some interesting Word Aikido but I suspect a little more went into the processes. Like, All the models had similar repair records, and Love are objective realities and defendable. You love her becausethis car is better because Obviously you have reasons for your decisions and thats not just my feeling. Surely the lovely and gracious Mrs. Old Grey Eagle was not chosen on an irrational basis, there must have been some logical factors which contributed to your decision. Im pretty sure she would be surprised to hear otherwise.

[Dedicated Dad]

I wish I could edit my posts.

 

[Chippewa29]

I've been following this discussion and it seems like it is going well beyond the realm of this forum and should probably be continued in the Politics and Issues forum.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry, I didnt run my wifes attributes through any logical process. Perhaps I could have found a more beautiful woman, or one who had far more money, or one who could provide me with power. I married my wife because how she made me feel and I have no defense for that.

 

When we moved in our neighborhood we looked at several houses all the same relative location (close to schools, shoping, parks) and we picked the one we liked best, turns out we both liked the same one because it reminded us of the houeses we grew up in, not logical, not raitonal, we just "feel' like this is home. If acting on feeling is a bad thing, then ok, I am bad.

 

At the last presidential election, I couldnt make up my mind about the candidates (NB candidates, not party) I picked the one the one I felt best about, no logic, no rationale, just feelings, sorry its just something I do (BTW, I think I felt right about my selctions

[Dedicated Dad]

If acting on feeling is a bad thing, then ok, I am bad. Youre not bad OGE, just a little confused about how you arrived at the reasons, reasoning is our basis for defense. Im sure you can answer this question. I love Mrs. OldGreyEagle because

[Chippewa29]

Ok, I'll jump on the bandwagon and add a piece of thought for this discussion (If you can't move 'em, join 'em). In the movie Contact (starring Jodie Foster and Matthew McCaughey?), Jodie's character is a scientist who feels that faith has no place in her life. Matthew plays a former seminary student that is involved in some scientific research. When questions Matt about how he can believe in God and tells him to prove to her (the logical, scientific approach) that God does exist, Matt has a great answer. He simply asks her, "Did you love your father?" and she says, "yes, of course." He then replies "prove it". She then realizes that there are some things you just have go with on faith and let your feelings decide.

[Rooster7]

Bob White,

 

Is a Scoutmaster suppose to reflect the character of the Chartering Organization?

 

Is BSA suppose to help the Chartering Organization reach its objectives and goals for youth?

 

I submit, if the answer to the above two questions is yes, then I have interpreted policy correctly. A Scoutmaster can (not necessarily should, but CAN) not sign off a boy for Scout Spirit per the examples I already provided.

[Bob White]

Rooster7-The complete requirement reads Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everday life.

 

The measure of scout spirit is a by the characteristics defined in the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

If a Troop was chaqrtered to a Jewish temple. the temple is well within its rights to say this troop is for the development of the youth of our temple only. If a Catholic boy wanted to join, the troop must say "I'm sorry but this troop is for Jewish members only".

 

If that same temple determines that the troop is open to all the youth in the community, then they have the authority to do that as well. When that same Catholic boy joins the troop and advances to Star Scout, can the Scoutmaster say "I won't sign because you don't follow the ideals and characteristics that are represented by the Jewish religion"?

 

By choosing to use the Scouting program the Charter Organization is saying they agree and endorse the values of scouting. Annually when they sign their Shared Responsibilities agreement as part of the yearly Charter process, the Charter executive or Charter Organization Representative, agree in contract to follow and support the methods and policies of the BSA program.

 

So the Chartering Organization determines that their goals are met through the values and methods of the BSA and they annually accept those values and agree to use and follow our rules and methods in the operation of the troop.

 

The role of the Scoutmaster is to help the boy grow in the values of scouting. If the values of the scoutleader do not agree with the value of scouting, then that person has neither the right or the authority to alter those values to reflect his own.

 

You can try. You can refuse to sign as many Scout spirits as you want for whatever reason. If you do it based on the points of the Law and the contents of the Oath, fine. Refuse for such predjudicial reasons as earrings or hairlength, and the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature.

 

There are a few posters who tire of my pointing out the resources of the scouting program that most of us use, so I will make this perfectly clear that the next part of this post is my own interprtation of the scouting program.

 

The BSA program has a host of training opportunities, manuals and reference materials to assist, prepare and develop quality leaders. The BSA has policies and procedures in place to protect youth from the other leaders.

 

Bob

 

 

[Rooster7]

Lets stay with my examples. Many others, arguing from a different perspective than what I am presenting here, have debated the long hair and earrings issue. Using those examples now, only serves to confuse the point that I am trying to put forth. Different chartering organizations have different perceptions as to what is meant by the Scout Law and Scout Oath. My specific examples demonstrated that point.

 

I really wish you had answered my two questions directly. They are key to this debate. Nevertheless, I submit that most of your last post on this subject is an opinionjust an opinion, one of many concerning this specific policy. I have read the BSA material covering chartering organizations (and yes, I am BSA trained). Nevertheless, I do not agree with your position. It does not ring true.

 

One, you refuse to recognize the fact that different chartering organizations may disagree as to what is meant by duty to God (as well as other parts of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law).

 

Two, you refuse acknowledge that BSA has an obligation to support the goals and objectives of the chartering organization. The Scoutmaster's values should agree with the chartering organizations' values. He represents that organization too, not just BSA. Despite your contention, they do have to be contradictory to one another.

 

I stand convince that you are not interpreting BSA policy correctly.

 

As to your last statement:

 

There are a few posters who tire of my pointing out the resources of the scouting program that most of us use, so I will make this perfectly clear that the next part of this post is my own interpretation of the scouting program. The BSA program has a host of training opportunities, manuals has policies and procedures in place to protect youth from the other leaders.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. My first impression is not good. So, to cover my bases, here are two replies:

 

OPTION 1 ("Go get training?) - To that, I can only say - Your arrogance knows no bounds. If it turns out that you REALLY ARE Lord Baden-Powell reincarnated, I will apologize in the afterlife. In the meantime, try to understand why some of us are not going to bow down to every word leaving your mouth. We actually do read those resources and do not come to the same conclusion as you do. Imagine that!

 

OPTION 2 ("For Your Information?") - This is interesting information. While I may agree with your interpretation, why do you feel it is relevant to this debate? If your response is anything similar to OPTION 1, then please reread my response OPTION 1. Otherwise, please make it relevant.

 

[Rooster7]

Someone really needs to fix the edit function on this board...

 

In my last it should read -

 

He represents that organization too, not just BSA. Despite your contention, they do NOT have to be contradictory to one another.

[Dedicated Dad]

Refuse for such predjudicial reasons as earrings or hairlength, and the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature. Bob, still struggling with definitions are we? How can prejudice be against behavior? Further, can you cite any particular cases where the BSA program has defended the alleged abuse? Who is the BSA program anyway, is it National, Council, District or the CO?

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Rooster7

Please consider 2 things.

 

Am I playing Baden-Powell by saying "Here is the the BSA program according to the BSA, we should follow it". Or are those who say "Here's what I say the BSA program is so that's what I'm going to do instead" actually the ones pretending to be the outliner of the program?

 

Secondly, It appears your argument is based on a false premise. Different chartering organizations have different perceptions as to what is meant by the Scout Law and Scout Oath. The Scout Oath and Scout Law are defined by the Boy Scouts of America not by the Chartering Organization. Those definitions are written in every Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Letting Each organization determine the scout values would be like each pro-football team having there own game rules. The League sets the rules, the ownership of the team chooses to join the League, and select its own players and coaches. The coaches are required to play the game by league's rules, not by what the individual owners or coaches decide the rules are.

 

The Charter Organizations, who choose to use scouting, agree each year to follow the BSA rules and program methods. The BSA allows the Charter Organization to choose membership within certain membership boundaries. Those boundaries are that the Chartered organization membership rules can be more restrictive then those set by the BSA, but they cannot be less restrictive then those set by the BSA. These membership rules only determin whether you get to be on the team, not how the game is played.

 

So in your specific case study the scout who would not shave can be restricted from membership by the Muslim Chartered Org. However, once a player (scout) is accepted on the team (the troop) the owners (Chartered Org.) and the coaches (scout leaders) must play the game by the rules of the league (the BSA).

 

At no time have I told anyone to operate a troop MY way. All I've said is "here are the scout methods and rules according to the BSA". I still don't understand why some posters find the recommendation of using the program so offensive, or why some feel using the program so difficult.

 

Bob