Earrings

[Bob White]

I really apologize for the misspellings. I hit the submit button a little faster than I should I guess.

 

 

[Rooster7]

What if the applicant does not reveal everything there is to know? What if new information comes to light when the boy is already in the program?

Chartering organizations do not explicitly tell a Scout that he must not be a liar to join, but a SM could hold him back on advancement (via the Scout Spirit requirement), if it is revealed that the boy is exhibiting this behavior.

 

[Bob White]

Rooster7,

You need to decide what this conversation is about. Character qualities exhibited by the scout that violate the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law, or physical characteristics that do not meet your taste or personal choice and are not against the rules of the CO or the BSA.

[Rooster7]

I'm trying to show the correlation, but I guess I missing the mark. My point is, if a chartering organization finds something to be inconsistent with their values (such as tattoos or even hair style) then the SM (reflecting the chartering organization's values) may not sign a Scout off on the Scout Spirit requirement (assuming he could tie it to the Scout Law or Oath).

 

For an example: Some Muslim sects believe a boy should not shave after reaching a certain age. So, if the said Muslim sect was the chartering organization, a SM could refuse to sign off Scout Spirit for a boy that insisted on shaving (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is reverent").

 

Here's a non-religious example: An American Legion, as a chartering organization, may feel that all Scouts in the troop must show respect for the American flag. If a Scout chose to wear a flag on the butt pocket of his jeans, a SM (reflecting the values of his chartering organization) may refuse to sign off the boy for Scout Spirit if he refused to remove the flag (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is Obedient").

 

[Bob White]

No, if the scout does not meet the criteria of the organization the COR may remove him from mebership. But you cannot deny him advancement, or alter advancement regulations, simply because you don't like his jewelry.

 

Improper uniforming is another matter. That would violate BSA ideals of Duty to Country, courteous, loyal, and it violates BSA uniforming regulations. That is as I said before a whole different situation.

[Rooster7]

I disagree. I still see this as a potential Scout Spirit issue (depending on the chartering organization's values and goals). Advancement would not be denied due to personal preference (i.e., the SM "didn't like his jewelry"). Rather, it would be denied because the Scout failed to show Scout Spirit (per the values and expectations of the chartering organization and as it applies to the Scout Oath and/or Law). You did not acknowledge my examples and how they are in fact tied to Scout Spirit. Nevertheless, looking at it from your perspective, then what would be more Scout-like?

a) You're not living up to our membership criteria, so we are removing you from the troop. "You are the weakest link...Good Bye!"

 

Or

 

b) You're not living up to our membership criteria, so you can either conform to it (in which case, we'll be happy to continue with the advancement process) or if not, I guess you'll have to find another troop.

 

I prefer "b", which in affect, is nothing more than an iteration of my last post. It gives the Scout a choice.

 

[Bob White]

Roostr7,

You are right and I apologize, I should have answered your examples specifically and I didn't. Please allow me to try now.

 

your example-Some Muslim sects believe a boy should not shave after reaching a certain age. So, if the said Muslim sect was the chartering organization, a SM could refuse to sign off Scout Spirit for a boy that insisted on shaving (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is reverent").

 

My Response- No. The COR can require the boy to meet the requirements set by the CO or rescind his membership. Because those are the rules of the chartered organization. But as the Scout volunteer Your job is to deliver the scouting program. You must follow the advancement rules of scouting and being clean shaven is not a violation and niether is having whiskers. If the COR does not feel that your perception of their rules negates the boy's membership then the only thing you can do is follow the regulations of scouting.

 

Your next example-An American Legion, as a chartering organization, may feel that all Scouts in the troop must show respect for the American flag. If a Scout chose to wear a flag on the butt pocket of his jeans, a SM (reflecting the values of his chartering organization) may refuse to sign off the boy for Scout Spirit if he refused to remove the flag (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is Obedient").

 

My Resonse- Yes, Sort of. You do not sign scout spirit is correct, but not because he won't remove it. You don't sign because he put it there and that does not show duty to country, courteous, loyal. You also don't sign because it is a uniform violation and does not represent the goals of scouting.

 

Never refuse to sign because the boy did not do what you told him to. That makes you out to be the ultimate authority and you're not. Refuse to sign because the Boy has the authority to make his own choices and he made a choice that violated the BSA regulations or ideals as written in the BSA program.

 

Don't rescind membership or hold advancement because YOU feel he violates the CO rules or ideals..that is not your job. Let the CO executive and the COR make that decision, they are the repesentatives of the Chater org. You are the Representative of the Scouting program. You need to support, defend and represent the BSA rules and regs.

 

In your next post you offered 2 solutions, I think if you reread them you will say thay are saying the same thing. "change or leave". Basically your right but only within a certain framework. If the scout is violating the CO rules or Ideals the COR can say change or leave.

 

If the scout is violating BSA Rules or regs you can refuse to sign scout spirit. (He will probably still get a Board of Review, but if you stick to just enforcing the rules and scout ideals not interpreting them to suit your opinions then your decision will probably be upheld, if however you feel he has too many holes in his ears, you will be overturned since that is not a violation.)

 

Your other option would be to counsel the boy and his family to find a troop better suited to them.

 

In the case of safety violations you can have the council rescind his membership.

 

The Scoutmaster's job is to evalute the needs and characteristics of a boy not to judge him, and there is a difference.

 

Bob

 

[Kelley]

Ok, I surrender I wear an earring, fought for my country, ride motorcycles, have a pony tail, am a non conformist, smoke and drink. What does that make me AN AMERICAN. I don't smoke nor will a scout ever smell alcohol on my breath. The boys in the troop now I do both.

Their Parents trust me to take care of the boys when gone on hikes, campouts, and other activities. When I wear the uniform and am with the boys I have everything where it belongs. My uniform is clean and pressed and the gig line is straight. there are no flags around the pockets and my hair is combed and in a ponytail. The earring is a small gold hoop that I am proud to wear, I earned it sailing the Seven Seas of Sinbad.

As for being a nonconformist. Yes I am I cannot help but to be because I am an American. I was taught to lead by example. So be it the boys in my troop don't come to meetings in baggy jeans. although they did at one time. I showed them that they might be cool but they were not made to go pushing thru the brush to get to a remote campsite.

Instead of trying to push the boys to do what you want do what we are supposed to do as leaders and advise. Most boys that I know of will do if you suggest and not try to tell them to do something .

My 2 cents worth..

 

[compdcd]

Kelley, that couldn't have been said any better

 

Thank you

[Mommascout]

I agree that kids (and adults) should be judged by character and not appearance. Body decorating (piercings, tatoos, hennas, hair design) goes back to ancient civilizations. It is simply a form of self expression. I don't think all boys with piercings are saying "look at me - I want your attention". I think they believe it is a cool trend or fad and just want to have fun with it. Yes, some may go to extremes and parents do need to try and limit overzealous teens. Peer pressure also comes into play. I don't think a tiny pinhole in one's ear can be considered "altering your body" - that's ridiculous.

 

Do I feel that I must defend my parenting skills because my son has one ear pierced? No way Dedicated Dad. You're talking with Dedicated Mom here. I felt a little offended by the "Character Flaw" comment but that is ridiculous as well. My 14 year old son has had a pierced ear since he was 10. He occasionally wears an earring. He has had the spiked hair, the bleached blond tips and those hairstyles have passed. Kids like to stay trendy and try new things.

 

As a parent you must know that you have to choose your battles carefully. I choose to not be as flexible when it comes to my high expectations of his behavior and grades and manners and respect for adults and his faith. But I also choose to give him freedom in making decisions for himself on issues that are not so important such as his hairstyle or the shoes he'd like to wear. Kids need to express themselves and also need to know that mom and dad approve. Of course I have said NO to some requests.

 

My son is a Star Scout in the OA (Arrow of Light Cub), a super swimmer for the YMCA (5 years), a member of the school band (Clarinet for 5 years), and an altar server for our church. He is a wonderful conscientious young man and I grow more proud of him every day.

 

Do I think he has a character flaw because of the pinhole in his ear?

 

Oh yeah - his real passion is skateboarding. That sport has been labeled negatively just like tattoos and earrings . Don't judge people on how they look.

 

 

[Dedicated Dad]

The Boy Scouts of America have regulations controling proper uniforming, we leave accessorizing and hairstyling to the legal parental authorities, not to the personal prejudices of adult volunteers. Bob, Im a little troubled by this statement and I was wondering if you could clarify a couple points? First of all arent accessorizing and hairstyle considered to be behavioral choices, and if they are behavioral choices and if the troop rules do not permit such behaviors then it really doesnt matter whether the parents approve or not, does it? At what point, in your expert opinion, does the accessorizing and hairstyle come in conflict with the units right to determine on the basis of considerations to continue membership? Shouldnt a unit be able to determine its own behavioral standards that dont include, purple hair, wearing make-up or womens clothing, body piercing and tattoos? And second, youve labeled those who disagree with you as having personal prejudices and Im just not sure how one can be prejudiced against behavior, surely you dont think I hold an ill will towards the individual, do you? How many ways can the BSA state its firm stance in support of traditional values, do you think these behaviors are considered to be traditional values, I dont! And you know, using tactics to demonize those who simply disagree with particular behavioral choices as being prejudiced is quite characteristic of certain people who disagree with certain other BSA policies in general. It would seem that your vision of the BSA is very different than those who see it in line with the traditional values the BSA stands firmly behind.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Not in our choice of hairstyle or jewelry. I respect a chartering organization's right to set its own membership requirements that upholds its ideals and beliefs.

 

I expect Scout Leaders to deliver the scouting program not their personal customized version of it in a scout uniform.

 

I believe your statements reflect predjudice because you pre-judge the behavior of people based on a physical characteristic.

 

Scouting discriminates. We take a known behavior make a determination as to whether it is good or bad. As an example Atheism, scouting believes that it is a behavior that is in direct conflict with a scout's Duty to God, and so we do not except atheists. We do not select a physical characteristic such as an an earring and say "Bad citizen" or "Doesn't respect his country", "Won't help other people", "Probably abuses drugs or alchohol". That would be prejudicial, and predjudice is something scouting does not endorse of participate in. Predjudice is in direct conflict with a the scout Law "a scout is Friendly", and with a scouts promise to help other people at all times.

 

You DD, have shown trenendous predjudice in your comments. Whether you do it from the thrill of the hunt to find a juicy debate, or from actual belief or merely gross ignorance of the scouting program. I no longer care what thought if any are behind your comments. others reading this string will have to choice which approach they view as scout like. I hope that they make that decision only after they reread this string and then read the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. I invite them to then choose who has represented the scout program and who has not.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Bob White

[Bob White]

Luke, Please fix the edit function. My typos are embarrassing.

[Dedicated Dad]

The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Agreed, its all in the oath and law. Not in our choice of hairstyle or jewelry. I respect a chartering organization's right to set its own membership requirements that upholds its ideals and beliefs. Obviously not! The only respect you have is for your personal interpretation of the membership requirements. The units have the right to make membership policies on the basis of considerations such as group size and youth behavior and they dont need the Bob White interpretation of this clear and compelling rule. Additionally, the BSA is behind traditional values, and I ask again, do you think body piercing, long hair, purple hair, tattoos, wearing womens make-up or clothing are traditional values? Any of the above? Just one or two? Whats your answer? I expect Scout Leaders to deliver the scouting program not their personal customized version of it in a scout uniform. Bob, you seem to expect your personal customized version when it comes to this subject. How is a troop going to determine its own membership if were not allowed to set membership requirements? Why is Bob Whites version different than the handbooks? I believe your statements reflect predjudice because you pre-judge the behavior of people based on a physical characteristic. How did they get that physical characteristic, its not the color of their skin analogy because they certainly werent born that way? Their behavior is apparent and visible, theres nothing to judge. If a unit wants to base its membership on the social norms of TRDITIONAL VALUES, its pretty easy to see when a Scout is pierced, tattooed or wearing make-up and lipstick, there is not very much pre-judging involved. Scouting discriminates. We take a known behavior make a determination as to whether it is good or bad. As an example Atheism, scouting believes that it is a behavior that is in direct conflict with a scout's Duty to God, and so we do not except atheists. We do not select a physical characteristic such as an an earring and say "Bad citizen" or "Doesn't respect his country", "Won't help other people", "Probably abuses drugs or alchohol". That would be prejudicial, and predjudice is something scouting does not endorse of participate in. Predjudice is in direct conflict with a the scout Law "a scout is Friendly", and with a scouts promise to help other people at all times. I never said or implied those things, it would seem that those are your prejudices manufactured from whole cloth. It is antisocial behavior, which is deviating from the social norm, and theres plenty of research to back that up and yet its irrelevant to the point. The membership requirements clearly states that a unit can choose its own members and they may interpret body piercing, tattoos, and womens make-up are behaviors and not physical characteristics and are inconsistent to being clean, morally straight or consistent with Traditional Family Values. Why would you deny them these rights as set down in Rules and Regulations, why? You DD, have shown trenendous predjudice in your comments. Well I guess if you write your own definition of prejudice as being AGAINST BEHAVIOR AND NOT THE INDIVIDUAL, then you got me Bob, Im also prejudiced against gambling too. Whether you do it from the thrill of the hunt to find a juicy debate, or from actual belief or merely gross ignorance of the scouting program. Nope, its a right and wrong issue for me all the way! And I base it on the Membership Requirements rule, there is no belief required, its all done with our comprehension skills. You, on the other hand, seem to base your opinion on your personal interpretation while ignoring the rather clear and concise rules, your comment about ignorance is laughable. I no longer care what thought if any are behind your comments. others reading this string will have to choice which approach they view as scout like. Scoutlike? Which is more scoutlike, Traditional Values or body piercing, purple hair, make-up and lipstick? Its clear to me and everyone else your agenda is to change the social norms of the BSA to universally accept poor behavior and that is NOT Scoutlike. I just can see it, in my minds eye, your version of an Eagle Scout candidate coming up for his BOR accessorized with an eyebrow ring and tongue stud, blue eye shadow and lipstick, purple spiked hair, fingernail polish and wearing a dress. In your world, nothing I said here can be against any policy, and it will be a sad day for the BSA indeed. I hope that they make that decision only after they reread this string and then read the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. I invite them to then choose who has represented the scout program and who has not. Well at least we agree on something, cheers!

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I for one beleive Bob White's view of scouting is much closer to the intent than Dad's. It's only a feeling and a belief, I cant defend it with rhetoric and involved arguments.

 

To All Forum Members, do you like Dad's views of Scouting better than Bob's or Bob's better than Dad's?