Troops and Mountaineering

[johnmbowen]

Our Troop has just done a bit of mountaineering.

 

I am very interested in Scout Troops that have done big mountains, or have done some mountaineering. I am particularly interested in international mountaineering trips by Scout Troops or Venture or Explorers, when they did them and what stories they have to tell.

[eisely]

Are your referring to rock climbing or trekking in steep terrain? We regularly backpack in the Sierras on established trails with no technical climbing. I would not consider that to be mountaineering. We also go to a local site occasionally for rapelling simply as a fun activity.

 

The troop I was with in Southern California used to make (and probably still makes) a long drive in early November to what is now Joshua Tree National Park. There are many opportunities there for both rock climbing and rapelling, but our camping on these trips was car camping.

 

Our council is only now gearing up to provide training in climbing safety to adults.

[johnmbowen]

Hi,

Well, this is a somewhat serious mountain, 18,800 feet, glaciated with a steep snow approach. We did use crampons, ice axes and helmets. We have trained the four guys involved since June in ice and snow mountaineering, including climbing in rope teams, rope team management, ice axe arrest as a team, and as individuals. We also covered team rescue techniques, running rope belays, fixed rope techniques, etc. They were if anything overprepared (something that we insist on) for this mountain, which frankly is not too difficult, except for the altitude.

 

The only significant thing that the Troop did was that the boys completely set the trip up themselves, did the logistics, and so on, something that most adult mountaineers can't do themselves. (Yes, there was teen aged agony expended in the preparation!)

 

We actually didn't make the summit. The day we went up, the wind had come up, and as we ascended it just got worse. On these big mountains, you always start at night with headlamps to be able to safely climb on hard snow, rather than slushy show in the daylight with the possibility of bad weather setting in in the afternoon. I went down with the youngest kid (14) from about 16,500 feet. He got a touch of altitude sickness (that was my job, as I have been on this summit several times before), but the rest of the team, and their adult ASM mountaineers (one summitted Mt. Blanc in August) made it to the crater rim at 18,300 ft or so in what they thought were 70 mph winds with maybe 90 mph gusts that twice blew them into an arrest position. Though the summit was only a bit around the rim and perhaps 500 feet higher, they decided that conditions were too much and went down. All are OK and had a great deal of fun, though most slept for about 15 hours that night.

 

In order to molify your anxiety that we are going to get these kids killed, we really do a great deal of training and preparation with our Scouts. We use teachers who are experts in their field of recreation, who also go on the more difficult outings like this one. Like your Troop, our Troop does a lot of things of this sort, though much closer to home. We have a small Troop, which enables us to lavish a lot of training in technical outdoor subjects on them individually during the meetings. We go on small trips, graduating to the larger ones.

 

We do the usual just like you guys: rock climbing (which they really like), back country skiing, we raft whitewater on our own boats with Scout boatmen, backpacking (which we are actually lucky to do as many folks don't have access to boats), wild caving, etc, but we also will take the older kids on tougher adventures like this one mountaineering or ski mountaineering, or rafting more difficult rivers about once a year. Like most Troops who are addicted to outdoor adventure, we have no problem with retention of members, and take pains with the training of the little kids. (Our oldest three Scouts have turned 18 and have signed up to be ASMs just to stay in the game!)

 

I am interested in any other Troops that have done this kind of big extensive trip and hit the summit of the more difficult mountains, gone caving in deep vertical caves, rafted rare and big rivers, or generally done somewhat exceptional outings. I know of one group that summitted Kilamanjaro in Africa, but not much more than that they summitted, and helped clean out a climber's cave. (We helped clean out the one and only (and disgustingly full) toilet at he Orizaba base camp). Apparently there is NO history of BSA attempts on big mountains, or other High Adventures that even adults would like to do. I think that stories of Scouts attempting big things (even those that didn't quite get there, like ours) would be a big draw for kids of Scouting age! I have asked the National Office about this, but no records seem to have been kept! I am hoping that we can get some good stories going that will be fun to read as well as making a basis for a high adventure history of our organization. I am sure that yours and mine are not the only groups doing fun stuff!

 

For all of you out there who have done something neat, can you contribute your stories? They don't have to be about foreign trips to high mountains!! Just more than the run of the mill trips that we all do, where the kids pushed the boundries just a bit.

 

Thanks

JB

 

[Mike Long]

A bit you say? Modesty, I like that. That's some heavy duty trip. Looks like fun to me.

 

18,800 feet? Where were you and what mountain did you climb as the highest mtn. in the lower 48 is Whitney at 14,494? Alaska?

 

I can't help but think most trips would be considered run of the mill compared to that.

 

 

 

 

[johnmbowen]

HI Eisely!

Wow, someone working on a holiday like me!

 

This mountain is El Pico de Orizaba or Citlaltepetl near Puebla, in Mexico. We went down on the 26th and got back on the 6th of this month. It is the 3rd highest in North America, but is also the easiest of the high altitude mountains to ascend...therefore a target for Scouts. The guys on this trip were highly motivated about this trip and really wanted to train and learn more. The 18 yr old has signed up to be ASM with two of his friends (who didn't get to go).

 

Because of proximity (we're from Wyoming), we have done several of the Colo 14ers, Gray's, Quandry and Bierstadt (those were ski trips), Crestone Needle, Longs, and a few others. We also did an ascent on Devil's Tower (too many on that trip), and have done Pingora in the Winds, which were rock climbing trips.

On the non-mountaineering side, we also do some caving, skiing, and whitewater rafting (we use our own boats, and Scouts trained as boatmen) and some canoeing too.

We have a good stable of adult affectionados for each of these activities that we call on only during the times that we do their type of outing. They help train and also go on the trips as ASMs.

 

Have you ever heard of any history of big trips that Scouts do? Well, OK, I thought that this Orizaba trip might make an entry in it, but I would truely like to hear of other stories too!

 

JB

[eisely]

That is an impressive undertaking. Somehow I doubt that more than only a few units in the USA take on that kind of thing.

[johnmbowen]

I attended a "climbing instruction" session run by BSA called 'Climb on Safely' which was a nice introduction to climbing for non-climbers. Mostly though, like the 'Safety Afloat' the session was mainly set up to inform the participants of the BSA policy. As an outfitter, I rapidly recognized this as a liability waiver situation, which merely informed the participants that if the BSA policy was not followed, the penalty was NO insurance coverage. I don't blame BSA for this stance, but outside of that, the instruction was not enough for a group to safely set up even the most rudimentary climbs for the units. It is the same with other fun activities.

 

This brings to mind a thought about setting up a hands on class for adults that would give people the fundamentals on setting up and running the fun trips that the kids like in a safe manner. It could include climbing and watersports, but it might better serve a larger audience if it included planning for trips (or teaching the kids to plan for the trips), logistics, costing, as well as the more technical aspects. It could be followed by, or included in a backpack trip or other trip itself.

 

That brought to mind another perceived problem. I was just asked to address an OA group about doing something other than bowling for an outing (no I'm not making up the bowling comment!)! There are all sorts of variations on outdoor trips, but youngtsters who have not had a variety of experiences don't know what there is to do. A different type outing for instance that I remember was called the 24 hour experience where the participants orienteered (at night) from one simple event or contest (one was just baking bread on sticks) over a 24 hour period.

 

Anyway, what is your take on these ideas?

[OldGreyEagle]

WOW, mr bowen, you certainly have challenged my idea of what boy scouts could do and where they can go. I realize you said the kids all know what they are getting into when they join the troop, but WOW, the kind of stuff I wish I did now, not just as a scout.

 

How much did climbing in Mexico cost anyway? Just a hint, and the logistics of transportation would be phenomenol. You dont need to be on this forum, your guys should be in Boys Life or Scouting magazines

 

::Best three fingered salute I can muster::

[johnmbowen]

The trip cost everyone about $1k which included the airline tickets (we had to scramble around to get cheap ones, mine was $450) and all on ground transportation as well as food. Busses from Mexico City to Puebla cost less than $10US, and $6 to Tlachachuca one way, the shuttle to the mountain and staying at the shuttle driver was $80US. We went to see Tiotihuacan $3.5 entrance + $6US bus ride, and the Anthrapological Museum (another $3.5US...that seemed to be the rate for all the archaeological sites). Meals in town ran around $3-5. I spent $1100 total.

 

The difficulty is not the doing of a cool trip, but just deciding that you are going and discovering the ways to get there. Why shouldn't Scouts do these?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Absolutely no reason I know of at all.

 

You have just opened my eyes to possibilities is all

[eisely]

The idea of running a night compass course as a different kind of activity is a great idea. The only time I ever did this was in the army. The bozos I was with almost got us into the impact area where live firing was going on. I tried to tell them ... but I digress.

 

The principal advice I would offer about a night compass course is to choose an area where there is nothing where anybody could get hurt. I also would suggest having adults at each control point on the course to help keep track of where people are. These adults can operate in lieu of punches for the ticket.