When is weather too extreme for Winter Camping?

[SoDakScouter]

This last weekend, February 2-4, was the Council's Klondike. It is winter camping at the Boy Scout Camp. We signed up 6 boys and 4 Webelos for the camp. Everybody was excited to go. Being a good adult leader, I kept an eye on the weather forecasts, to attempt to keep the boys and parents informed as to the equipment necessary. We are in the 7th year of a drought, so we don't have lots of snow. Evidently there was snow at the camp. The forecast kept getting colder. Finally, the 3 days before the camp, the temperatures were minus zero, weather advisories and projections for colder temperatures for the weekend and wind. Wednesday night, I was looking at the predictions for the weekend. There is of course not a weather station at the camp, so we had to go by the predictions of near by towns. The fulltime ranger at the camp does self report to one of the tv stations and the numbers were below zero and around 8 degrees during the day. The camp is about 7 miles west off the main road, up in the mountains. It sits in a valley, and the wind does blow through there pretty often. The predictions for the nearest town was -12 at night at 2 above zero during the day. Wind was predicted to be around 20 mph with gusts to 35 mph. This gives a constant wind chill of below zero. National Weather Service had issued warnings and advisories not to be out in the weather unless it was absolutly necessary. We had 4 older boys going (13-16 years old) and they are experienced campers and we knew they could do the camping, but the two younger ones and the 4 Webelos we had high concerns about it. Based upon all this information, the Scoutmaster and I (Troop Committe Chairman) decided that we were not going to subject the boys or adults going along to these temperatures. None of our parents objected, in fact, we were commended for our decision. We talked to the boys and the older boys thought that it might be to cold to go. So there is not a problem with the parents, the problem is with the local council.

 

My self, and a number of other leaders from other Troops had contacted the Council about the concerns with the weather and if Klondike was going to be cancelled or rescheduled. I had notified the Council that we were pulling out. Now comes the fun part. We paid $10.00 per boy for the Klondike. Council's expenditures are for the patches on this one. They have to keep the Staff Training Center heated because of the water pipes anyway, so that would be a fixed cost, along with the Camp Ranger. Council's unofficial response is "no refunds", however their reasoning is that this is winter camping, there is snow for the first time in years, that we are to prepare these boys for camping in this weather and we are Boy Scouts so deal with it. This reasoning did not sit well with me and other Adults in our Troop. One Dad is particularily upset. Not over the $10.00, but about the prinicipal of exposing the boys to dangerous weather and being cavalier about it. One parent is pulling FOS support because of it.

 

It turns out that the low was -8 and the high got into the teens, around 19, but the wind was a factor. Kids were able to go into the Staff Center to warm up. 3 troops camped, two in tents and one in a lodge. Several came up during the day on Saturday and left afterwards. We could have gone up during the day too, but again, I was thinking that it was just too cold and dangerous to expose the kids to those temperatures.

 

A lot of people are not going to speak against Council, because nobody wants to rock the boat. Also, many people get caught up in the inside of Scouting and don't always see things from the outside looking in. Many people know I am involved in Scouting, so they also knew generally about the camping plans. Many of them were shocked that the Council was pushing forward with the camping and thought that we made the right decision not to go. Some of these "outsiders" are full time National Guard and couldn't believe that we would expose boys to that extreme temperatures.

 

So the point of this whole posting is to get feed back as to what would be too low of temperature and conditions for Winter Camping.

[Eagle69]

There is no stock answer to your question. Based on your post I would say that YOU and YOUR committee made the best decision for your troop and the parents supported you and commended you for it. The bottom line is that you have to take each case on it's on merits and then use your knowledge to make the call.

 

I've pulled the plug on outings on Friday afternoon as people came to the departure point because conditions had changed to the point I didn't think it was a good idea to go.

 

Council/District is hardly ever going to give money back. Once they get it in their hands they keep it unless THEY cancel or there is a refund policy stated for the event and you complied with the policy when you canceled out.

[AntelopeDud]

This is always a tough one to answer. I absolutely despise camping in extreme cold conditions, but I know how to do it and so do the youth of our Troop. I am a Committee Chairman and I would pull the plug on an event if travel conditions were such that it was dangerous to get there or get home. Conditions on the ground is something that the boys should be ready for and there should be provisions made in case an inexperienced Scout does come unprepared. It's alway up to the Scout and his parents whether they decide to participate in a Troop campout. Also, I think the Scoutmaster and PLC should work together to make an appropriate decision. I guess it's sort of up to the unit and the Scout within that unit.

 

IMO, the council should go ahead with the event as long as travel is safe. For those that want to brave the cold and make it through the event, it shouldn't be up to the council to take that away from them. It's the unit's responsibility to see that they are prepared. Once an event is scheduled and plans made, it's very difficult to refund money to participants, especially if the Council has to take a hit for it.

 

Trips like this are ones that stay with the Scout forever. They don't forget these.

[jr56]

I have always had to use judgement on a case by case basis. Scouts can be prepared for just about anything. But, as weather conditons get worse, you need more and more experience to keep yourself comfortable. If, in my judgement, the scouts I were taking out were not experienced enough to handle the weather, I would cancel the outing.

[ScoutNut]

Simple - There were Webelos along. You were quite right to cancel.

 

Webelos are NOT Boy Scouts. Webelos are Cub Scouts & should be following the Guide to Safe Scouting rules/guidelines for Cub Scouts. The G2SS, Age Appropriate Guidelines, recommends winter camping for Boys Scouts and older, not for Webelos.

 

As for your council, I can't say I agree with their decision, but I can understand it.

[ScoutNut]

Simple - There were Webelos along. You were quite right to cancel.

 

Webelos are NOT Boy Scouts. Webelos are Cub Scouts & should be following the Guide to Safe Scouting rules/guidelines for Cub Scouts. The G2SS, Age Appropriate Guidelines, recommends winter camping for Boys Scouts and older, not for Webelos.

 

As for your council, I can't say I agree with their decision, but I can understand it.

[Eamonn]

I hate the cold!!

Back when I was our District Chairman, I attended and camped at a District Winter Camp.

As with many events where there is a fair number of Troops present. We had the good, the bad and sad to say the ugly!!

Sure enough the Troops that were good seemed to have no problems.

But the bad just were not able to handle it and the ugly were down right dangerous!

Wet Scouts running around in wet T-shirts, late at night, when I asked why they weren't in their tents they informed me that their sleeping bags were wet! When I checked on their leaders they were snoring!! Well, they were till I woke them up and demanded that they pack up and go home!

Scouting is a controlled risk.

We at have to control the risk.

To my mind you did the right thing and the Council is really taking an unnecessary risk.

Sadly if a Scout was harmed or hurt the Council would pass the buck -First to the Leaders and then to the CO.

Not returning the money?

In my opinion this isn't the way to boost support for FOS.

Ea.

[GernBlansten]

Last year, our Klondoree reached the aforementioned temps. Luckily no wind, wind increases the misery index. -8 F in the morning but got up to a balmy 10 by noon. It met the fore-casted weather, very cold all weekend. I hoped and prayed that district would cancel the event. That would have made it easy for us leaders. But they didn't. We dreaded. We Packed. Put in some extra gear and just sucked it up and dealt with it. It would have been well within our right and in some parents minds, sanity, to just cancel our attendance. Some units did. But we persevered. The boys loved it. Bragging rights I guess. Us leaders survived. Got the Polar Bear patch too. Afterwards, I and the boys would have been disappointed if district cancelled it.

 

Some may say -10 degrees is too dangerous. It is if you aren't prepared. But so is +25F if you don't plan for it.

[scoutldr]

SoDak said, "National Weather Service had issued warnings and advisories not to be out in the weather unless it was absolutly necessary."

 

To me, this was the deal-breaker. Winter camping under extreme conditions is what I consider to be "high adventure" and should only be attempted after extensive training, proper technical equippage, and lots of experience. Your average Webelos or tenderfoot scout (or adult couch potato) does not fit this category.

 

That being said, when the temp dips below 50, I start shivering. I hate winter. Our Klondike is this coming weekend and the forecast is 42/26. I'll be staying home. Wimp? You betcha. I'm with Eamonn on this one. One of my worst memories is spending all night shivering in a sleeping bag as a 12 year old scout. I never want to be that cold again.

[GernBlansten]

SoDak said, "National Weather Service had issued warnings and advisories not to be out in the weather unless it was absolutly necessary."

Camping is absolutly necessary. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[CalicoPenn]

The Council is right, in my opinion, not to be offering a refund (even though it is only $10), though their reasoning is, let's just say it - dumb. Obviously the person you talked to didn't give it any logical thought. The reason the Council should not be giving a refund, and that your unit shouldn't push it, is that even though you folks decided not to attend (a good decision on your part given the circumstances/parameters and support from your parents and youth you received), Council did not cancel or reschedule the event. Other units attended, either camping, or as day trippers. Since the event went on as scheduled, Council should not be obligated to refund the money of those units that chose not to attend, even if those units had a good reason. Imagine that you made reservations to see a play, paid for the tickets, then decided not to attend for some reason - it's unlikely that you would ask the theater to refund your money if the performance went on just because you decided (for whatever good reason you had) not to go. Had Council cancelled the event, then they should refund and eat any associated costs, but since they didn't cancel, those expenses were incurred and still needed to be paid (side note, the Staff Training Center may need to be heated to keep the pipes from freezing but there is a cost differential between "heating" a cabin to a constant 60 degrees which is sufficient to keep the pipes from freezing and heating it to a human comfort level of 70 degrees). It's a tough situation for you because you were right to not attend, and Council was right not to refund since the event went on without you. It was ultimately your choice not to attend, not even as day trippers, so Council should not be on the hook for your decision. Hopefully you can explain it that way to the parents, (since Council wasn't able to) and they'll understand from that perspective, and restore their FOS.

 

As for the question "when is it too cold" - the answer is "when you and the Scouts believe it is too cold to be out camping". It's a subjective thing, even with National Weather Service "warnings and advisory's" which is just that - advice. For a Southern Californian, 40 degrees above may be too cold, for an Alaskan, it might not be too cold until it hits negative 35. For a South Dakotan, 20 degrees may be just fine. For a Mainer, 20 below might be just fine. It depends on where you are, how acclimated you are (had it been consistently cold in South Dakota the past couple of months (under 20) instead of the last couple of weeks, you might all have felt acclimatized to the cold and not felt the temps over the weekend were that much of a burden), what equipment you have, how much experience you have, etc. etc. etc.

 

I was an OKPIK instructor in Maine, at the Maine National High Adventure Base, back when OKPIK was a National High Adventure program (before it was rolled out at Council level). There were a couple of weekends when we headed out with temperatures expected to be below zero - proper training, proper equipment, a well-planned and rehearsed emergency procedure makes all the difference. My favorite trips that winter happened to be on the weekends when it was below zero because every unit wanted to build a giant quinzhee to call home rather than sleep in the tents, and a quinzhee can be warm as toast on a cold winters night.

 

Calico

[nldscout]

When is it to cold? its never to cold if your prepared for it.

 

3 yrs ago we camped out prior to our Klondike, it got down to -30 at night. Was it cold, you bet, was we cold, not really. We had Quinzees to sleep in, and were well prepared. You cam camp in anything if your prepared.

 

If you said the older scouts were prepared for camping, then why not split the unit, let them camp and the younger scouts come out during the day. I can't see cancelling due to cold especially when you had a warming building.

 

I have run events and have never given a refund except in the most extreme cases, like a death or serious illness.

 

Eamonn,

Some of us live for the winter.

 

Paul

 

[SoDakScouter]

I appreciate everyone's post. The discussion is going the way I anticipated.

 

Some additional points:

 

1. Winter has not really made an appearance here for about 7 years. So the snow and the cold have not been around for us to get used to the conditions. It could be the natural weather cycle for this area or global warming, but we should discuss that in another forum.

 

2. The Cavalier attitude of the District and Council Executives is probably the most troubling. They are almost critizing us for making the decision not to go. We knew that we would loose the registration fee, just past experiences. If they had just said it was "Council policy not to refund registration for events that were held." Instead, it is "we are not refunding because there was actual snow, you should be teaching the boys winter survival skills and it is just what Boy Scouts do." This has what has upset us more than anything. And council would not cancel anything because then they would have to refund money. At times, it seems they are more concerned about getting money than about the activity or the safety of the boys. Of course, I don't think they would refund money even in the event of serious injury or death.

 

3. The idea of splitting the group and sending the older boys up to camp and bring the younger ones up during the day was thought of, admittedly, not very throughly. There was another message here to contend with, that was the weather warnings/advisories. At this stage in life, the boys get many mixed messages. So my concern was if we went, would we be saying that it is okay to use these warnings to prepare for the weather and go anyway? Of course, the boys being boys and hearing only what they want to hear, could hear the "It's okay to ignore warnings!" So this message issue was there for me. Scoutmaster was had serious concerns about weather conditions. Earlier this year, at a Cub Scout Fall Fun Day, the adult leader that was putting on the Fall Fun Day had his son, who had recently crossed over to Boy Scouts helping out. One activity was making simple sail boats and floating them down the creek. This boy was in the creek, getting the boats that got hung up. Of course, have boys and water together, somebody is getting wet. I would not let my Webelos in the water and they couldn't understand that. Why could one and not the other. I brought this to the attention of the Distric Executive and the response was "His dad was there and said it was okay". This Council likes to send mixed messages.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject.

[Beavah]

Yah, winter always makes itself felt in our area, eh? Not unusual a bit north of us for kids to ride snowmachines to school. Troops ski and snowshoe backpackin' in -20 degree weather happins regularly with no big fuss. Been out with older boys at -45 in a gale (-100 "wind chill"). A bit nippy, but no problems other than burnin' yer tongue on hot coffee.

 

There's no such thing as bad campin' weather, just poor choices in clothing. Fact is, it's much more fun campin' in winter than in black fly season . I'd hate to see another "rule" to govern temperatures.

 

So da real answer to your question is that you modify or cancel an outing whenever you feel that your unit, as a team, lacks the gear or experience to be safe. Yeh gotta be careful with that, because sometimes adults and older boys have the gear and experience, but yeh have to be mindful of the team as a whole. Yeh also have to be careful that adults who don't like winter campin' don't mess up the boys' plans for their own reasons, too .

 

It should have nuthin' directly to do with broadcast "warnings." You should understand, and should teach your boys to understand, what such "warnings" mean, eh? They are general alerts to the "average" members of society, with a bit of a lean toward the weak (ex. elderly) and the foolish. Listen to 'em, understand 'em, but make your own decision. If your team has more experience and is better equipped, there's nuthin' wrong with chuckling over the "warning" and proceeding. If your team is poorly equipped or experienced as a group, the absence of a "warning" doesn't mean its OK for you to go out either. "Average" members of society don't go campin' in bad weather, so there's no need for da media to "warn" them about that, eh?

 

Sounds like yeh made an excellent decision for your group. That kind of good judgment in a "no go" decision is what safety is made of. Especially given webelos (why exactly are webelos comin' on a Boy Scout Klondike??).

 

But don't be down on the da other troops that went out, or on the Council for holding the event. They hopefully made their own good judgments, based on the gear and experience of their teams. Seems like there were plenty of indoor spots to retreat to in a pinch, so this was a good spot to learn to winter camp. I'd let the $10 go. You should never be makin' a safety decision based on whether you get a refund or not anyway, eh?

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[SoDakScouter]

Beavah: To answer one question "Why were Webelos going to a Boy Scout Klondike?" They are encouraged to go up with Boy Scout Troops for Klondike and Pilgrimage by our Council. That is one troubling thing here, they expect and want younger kids, but don't seem to take into account their ages and experiences. We just get responses that "we are Boys Scouts, so do it".

 

I don't think we need a temparture control rule, but probably common sense back into district and council executives. The response we had gotten was more of "we planned it, so we won't cancel it." By the way, the District Executive and Council Executive didn't spend the night up there. They stayed home in their warm beds. At least one of them went up during the day. Being critized for not going by somebody that stayed home instead of camping is a bit hypocritical.

 

We knew that we would not get back the registration fees, we have written off the $10.00 per boy.

 

Two of the older boys that were going to go I have been their leader since Tigers. One is my oldest son and the other is the Senior Patrol Leader. They have been through some pretty extreme camping, thunderstorms, forest fires, tornados, Jamboree 2005, blizzards, zero degree camping, etc. Those two would do just fine, the other two are tough kids with good heads on their shoulders. They would have done fine. We just decided that as adults, we did not want to put the boys at risk that we thought was avoidable.

 

I do appreciate your comments and insights.