le Voyageur Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Need a bit of feed back on an item that I will be introducing to our Council's Camping Committee in a few weeks...here, more heads are indeed better than one...here's my thoughts With more and more Venture Crews coming on line, I've been thinking about creating a program akin to merit badge counselors for these folks. The program for the now is simply called Ranger Guides, and who, like MBC's will provide their expertise as a program resource for crews working on Ranger requirements to tap into.... now, your thoughts........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Long Posted January 19, 2002 Share Posted January 19, 2002 Sounds like a great idea to me. I'm not very familiar with the Venture program but providing resources to units can't be a bad thing. What exactly would the guides do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 19, 2002 Share Posted January 19, 2002 It was my understanding that the Venture Program is supposed to be a youth led organization and the crew members are to find their own resources. TO provide them with a list is contrary to the intent of the program As I understand it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9gold-scout Posted January 19, 2002 Share Posted January 19, 2002 Venture scouts are requested to go outside of the regular scouting system and seek out professionals in the selected advancement area. For example for the sports bronze award they would go to their team coach who would sign off on the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 19, 2002 Author Share Posted January 19, 2002 The purpose of this program is to provide crews with a list of folks with expertise superior to theirs, or having certifications that they lack in order to complete the more hazardous and demanding Ranger requirements only...Whitewater, Climbing, C.O.P.E., Hunting, etc. There will be no guides for any of the requirements that need no certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 19, 2002 Share Posted January 19, 2002 Not that any crew would refuse such information, but the intent of the program is to have the crew seek out people with the credentials, not have the people handed them on paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 19, 2002 Author Share Posted January 19, 2002 OGE I tend to think that this reading of the rules is much to literal. Don't think a Council's list would be any different from that of a for profit guide service. A Council's list would serve as a prescreening since certification does not quarantee experience. Consider this, would you want your 14 year old son/daughter on a white water trip with some Scouter's fishing buddy leading the trek who's only certification is "Safety Afloat", and who's only experience on water is sitting in a fishing boat. Don't think that this happens, sad to say, it does. For myself I've spent a lot of time during summer camp staff weeks teaching the camp's newly certified BSA Aquatic Director the finer points of guarding waterfronts (rivers and lakes) because their training is focused on pools. I also recall a video showing a rescue of a scout on the American River who was pinned between a bridge abutment and his boat. The kid was saved, but it was close, another 10 or 15 minutes and hypothermia would of killed him. The truth is, the unit leaders were not qualified to lead a such a trek, even though the river at that time was to the untrained or rather the inexperienced eye, running at an easy CII, well within the standards as set forth in BSA Guidelines. What the Unit Leaders failed to take into condsideration was water temperature on a river being fed by snowmelt. A seasoned river runner would of upped the river's classification to CIII and takened a lot more precautions. Are these Unit Leaders fully accountable for this near fatal accident...don't think so, the Council is also at fault for okaying the tour permit allowing this trip to take place with unqualifed leaders. And, the parents are at fault for failing to inquire about the leaders qualifications for such a trip before signing the release form. Maybe I'm tinkering with the rules somewhat, but there is a lot at stake here. The river guides that I train for summer camp are taught one very important and unbreakable rule..."No scout goes home in a body bag!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 19, 2002 Share Posted January 19, 2002 I am not saying any Crew or any group should not receive expert training from experts. The adult leadership of the crew is responsible to be sure the crew does not attempt anything they re not properly trained for. I am saying it is up to the crew to find the qualified people, that is all. How that is construed to be an edorsement of inadequate training is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 20, 2002 Author Share Posted January 20, 2002 No, I hope that is not something that I'm saying, and I hope that it is something that I'm not implying. Let me back up a bit and change the title of this program that I'm thinking about from a guide service to this....Venture Crew Commissioner, something akin to a Unit Commissioner, but taps into folks who are high adventure specialists and who's primary focus is on crews just getting started. The goal being to get these crews out camping as soon as they get that charter, and to assist those brand spanking new adult leaders in learning wilderness and camping skills...does that seem to better described what I'm trying to do???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Le Voy Whatever you call it, a Reference List, a Resource List, A commisioner or whatever, providing such help is contrary to the Venture Program. The crew is supposed to find these people on their own. The experience of finding out what is required to know to do an activity, finding people who can provide the training, and then doing the activity is all part of the total experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 I realize we may be talking around the same issue, and not realize it. Try this link: http://usscouts.org/venturing/VenturingCommissioner.ppt its from the USSSP Venturing website. Amoung other things it lists the responsibilities of the local council to crews. If you think your idea fits into these responsibilities, by all means do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 I've not looked at your link yet, but a big thanks ahead of time. Have been sitting back pondering a bit on this and wasn't in a rush to post. Since my focus in scouting is in the development of High Adventure programs for the older scout; maybe what it is that I'm thinking about would be much more useful for those scout troops (not Venture Crews) that are maturing, and just starting with High Adventure. Guess I'll think on this a wee bit more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcquillan Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 First I'll admit to a huge alck of knowledge about the Venture Program. Tha being said, and having taken a look at the link OGE provided, I don't see anything in the program description that obligates the Scouts to seek out their own resources, although it might be there in the fine print. What did catch my eye, as it does in all Scouting venues, is the child protection issue. And, if what "le Voyageur" is proposing is tantamount to an approved list of merit badge counselors, but for the Venture Program, I tend to think that it might be a good idea. But I guess my biggest question would be...if BSA has gone to the lengths it has to define the Merit Badge Counselor program, all its required registrations and such to address the youth protection issues, wouldn't they already have produced a format for doing the same in Venturing? Or....am I reading your proposal all wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 No, I don't think that BSA has addressed this issue. As of yet, I've not seen any requirement for an outside source to be knowledgeable of BSA's youth protection guidelines, nor the Guide to Safe Scouting. Seems that Crew Leaders have to make some pretty tough calls to put a crew into the field, would hate to see them left hanging holding the bag....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo2 Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Not heard the term 'Powder Horn' used here yet; appears to be upper level BSA training for adults with older Scouts/Venture Patrols/Crews. Looks to be along the lines of the breakout sessions in the new SM Fundamentals syllabus but much more intense. Won't have the pleasure of attending our local one this year but it's at the top of my list for 2003. Might address a certain amount of this. At least assist SMs / advisors in determining when it's time to get some more training or include an expert. Good example is BSAs reqt that an adult complete a 10 hour instructional session and then be qualified to lead a rock climbing/rappeling program - I'm thinking NOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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