campout-tempest in a teapot

[gwd-scouter]

Similar situation in our area - nothing scheduled (hopefully) for the weekend of the Clemson-Carolina game.

[Eamonn]

Wow!!

Eamonn

[SWScouter]

Eamonn, this shouldn't be a surprise, especially since you've read Grisham's "Bleachers"

 

SWScouter

[Lisabob]

Yup, around here it is the Michigan-Michigan State game. Actually I found this to be more of a problem in cub scouts where (in all honesty) the chances of the schedule being set by a mom who just wasn't into sports was much higher. And then the dads (and their sons!) wouldn't attend of course. At least in the troop the BOYS are very likely to speak up if someone makes this kind of scheduling gaffe.

 

Anyway I agree that mom might not have understood what's happening and that she's out of line to demand a rule on the matter. But I admit myself to having wondered (sometimes vocally) why things were happening the way they were and thinking this or that was a waste of time. And so I think you also need to be mindful about how you frame your response. Yes, boy-led is important and one of those mantras to which we all (rightly) bow. But you know what, some parent who hasn't been steeped in BSA training/practice isn't guaranteed to know or exactly care about "boy led" if what they perceive is "boy led = waste of boys' time." I know I felt that way for a while when "boy led" seemed to mean playing duck duck goose at troop meetings every week for lengthy periods of time (this was boy-unplanned, truth be told, and I think the SM was at fault as much as anyone for not providing more guidance to the PLC - which he eventually did after enough parents got annoyed.) But this wasn't what I'd signed him up for, what I'd paid for, or what I was spending a bunch of time driving him around for. And in that context throwing "boy led" out on the table sounded strangely like a defensive cop out on the adults' part. Please understand Baden, I'm not saying your troop failed to plan in the case you described - but rather, that it might take more than just repeating the boy-led mantra to get mom here on board.

 

So a question or two: Is this boy part of your troop leadership? Is he new-ish to the troop? In the first case, a sit-down where you give the mom a reminder about "boy led" shouldn't be so hard. In the latter, I think you have to ask the mom what she wants her boy to get from scouting and make sure to frame your response (and the boy-led explanation) in terms that match, at least to a degree, with what she's seeking. That doesn't mean distorting the truth, just helping her see how the troop vision meshes with her own. And then maybe also do some education work so she begins to see scouting as more than just an activity her son is involved in (here's where the boy-led stuff fits nicely).

 

By the way - sounds like a good campout and congrats on doing a nice service project too.

 

Lisa

 

[Lisabob]

Yup, around here it is the Michigan-Michigan State game. Actually I found this to be more of a problem in cub scouts where (in all honesty) the chances of the schedule being set by a mom who just wasn't into sports was much higher. And then the dads (and their sons!) wouldn't attend of course. At least in the troop the BOYS are very likely to speak up if someone makes this kind of scheduling gaffe.

 

Anyway I agree that mom might not have understood what's happening and that she's out of line to demand a rule on the matter. But I admit myself to having wondered (sometimes vocally) why things were happening the way they were and thinking this or that was a waste of time. And so I think you also need to be mindful about how you frame your response. Yes, boy-led is important and one of those mantras to which we all (rightly) bow. But you know what, some parent who hasn't been steeped in BSA training/practice isn't guaranteed to know or exactly care about "boy led" if what they perceive is "boy led = waste of boys' time." I know I felt that way for a while when "boy led" seemed to mean playing duck duck goose at troop meetings every week for lengthy periods of time (this was boy-unplanned, truth be told, and I think the SM was at fault as much as anyone for not providing more guidance to the PLC - which he eventually did after enough parents got annoyed.) But this wasn't what I'd signed him up for, what I'd paid for, or what I was spending a bunch of time driving him around for. And in that context throwing "boy led" out on the table sounded strangely like a defensive cop out on the adults' part. Please understand Baden, I'm not saying your troop failed to plan in the case you described - but rather, that it might take more than just repeating the boy-led mantra to get mom here on board.

 

So a question or two: Is this boy part of your troop leadership? Is he new-ish to the troop? In the first case, a sit-down where you give the mom a reminder about "boy led" shouldn't be so hard. In the latter, I think you have to ask the mom what she wants her boy to get from scouting and make sure to frame your response (and the boy-led explanation) in terms that match, at least to a degree, with what she's seeking. That doesn't mean distorting the truth, just helping her see how the troop vision meshes with her own. And then maybe also do some education work so she begins to see scouting as more than just an activity her son is involved in (here's where the boy-led stuff fits nicely).

 

By the way - sounds like a good campout and congrats on doing a nice service project too.

 

Lisa

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Ask the mother is she'd like a little "shut up" to go with the whine.

 

When people threaten to leave over something like this be sure that the boy knows what was said and that you are sticking to your guns. Don't let the screen door hit you....you know the rest. She has thrown down the gauntlet.

 

Make sure the (insert unsavory and unscoutlike term in here)does not tell the boy that he was kicked out of the Troop.

Make sure the boy knows it was the mother's doing that had him leave his buddies.

 

Goodness sakes the PL asked if it was OK. tell her to look up what boy led means.

 

Who ever wrote that she has not paid her dues and has not right to whine was right. If she wants to change things let her "cowboy up" and lead a few trips then she can complain.

 

What would these people ever do if something really bad were to happen.

 

Better yet tell her you resign and now she gets a new part time job with a full time commitment.

 

John Wayne would have known what to do.

[Lisabob]

"Ask the mother is she'd like a little "shut up" to go with the whine. "

 

Wow is that rude. I'm sorry uz2bnowl but I'd be REALLY offended if that were the kind of response I got from my son's troop leaders. And, as I AM one of the adult leaders in my son's troop, I'd also be extremely embarrassed if any other leader responded to a parent that way. To the point of questioning if that other leader had the right temperment to hold his or her position any longer. I seem to remember something about "helpful, friendly, courteous, kind..." being an important part of scouting.

 

Look, the mom in question is out of line, no question. But rather than get defensive and rude, one needs to consider that she might not see the program the same way we do, and it is part of our job to work WITH the other parents to help them understand what's going on and why. With a little patience, she might become one of the troop's most outspoken and helpful supporters. With the approach you advocate, yeah, she'll be gone and so will her boy, and I wouldn't blame her a bit.

[Venividi]

baden,

 

Taking a look from a different perspective, I think that what SHOULD have happened was for the committee chair to have explained to the complaining Mom that a)he heard her, b)it was appropriate for for the PLC to include a couple of hours to listen to the big game in their weekend campout, and c) the SM has the committee's support in having approved it. The CC should be the SM's best friend in running interference for the SM in situations such as these. (Unless I am misreading your post, which sounds like the CC brought the problem to the SM, rather than as a "for your information" courtesy message).

 

A couple of things to do here to help keep things like this from bubbling up too frequently:

- Request the CC to run this type of interference if he/she is presently not doing so. The CC may be new and/or not have experienced such situations before, and isn't currently comfortable running such information. Use this as an opportunity to help him/her learn how to support you.

- If you are not currently doing so, keep the committee informed at committee meetings with SM reports that include what the troop did on their most recent campouts, so they all are aware of the balanced activities that you described in your post.

- Periodic "all parent" meetings where SM and CC explain the aims, the methods, the troops program, and how the troops program fits in with the aims and methods.(annually just after new parents join is a good time).

 

Sounds like you have a good program for the campout.

As SM, dealing with difficult parents was more wearing than difficult scouts. Getting the committee to a point where they understand and support the program sufficiently to shield you from such issues will help stave off burnout.

 

[Venividi]

I want to add to my previous post: be appreciative that the mom took her issue to the committee chair. She did that correctly. Too often parents will circumvent the committee and go straight to the SM with their complaints.

[baden]

Many thanks to the forum members for their input and kind words. In answer to many questions posed by the members, the Scout in question is a fine lad, very bright. He is a Second Class Scout, transitioned last Feb. He attended Summer Camp, attends Troop Meetings almost without fail, and has not missed an outing since joining. He is close to 1st Class and at the rate he is advancing may become our youngest Eagle. I fear he may be gone by 14 when he will probably make Eagle as I perceive that his family (Mom) will pull the plug on Scouting when he maxes out on resume impact. This boy is generally well liked by the rest of the Troop and is pretty socially well adjusted for a Home-Schooler (in my limited experience).

 

Mom is not registered with the Troop and has no training. She was a member of the Pack committee when her son was a Cub. She is very intelligent and generally friendly which made her actions somewhat surprising. The Dad is also a bright and outgoing person, but is tied up with work a lot as far as I can tell. He picks his Son up sometimes or drops him off but seems to have no interest in Scouting. Frankly he sometimes treats me and my ASM as if we are somewhat feeble-minded, but we don't know him well. It has been asked what Mom was doing visiting the campout. She just does that. She usually pops in at outings to see what we are up to, stays for a little while and then leaves. I sense that she is some sort of Uber-Mommy. This Scout is an only child and as I stated earlier, is home schooled.

 

I don't know if we have achieved mind-meld, but there is a temporary truce. I called the Mom tonight and explained the circumstances that led to my debauching the youth with idleness and folly. I also explained that this is not our usual program. She apologized for being abrupt with me and for making it an issue with the Troop Comm. I did tell her that I thought she correct in going to the Chairman. So, for now-Peace in Our Time. We'll see how it goes.

[scoutldr]

Sounds like an appropriate scout-like solution. Shake hands and move on.

[Beavah]

Yah, another Uber-Mommy of an only child. She shows up randomly unannounced on campouts?? Yeh need to do more backpackin'.

 

In my experience, these things rarely go away. Da passive-aggressive stuff will just go underground for a bit until the next flareup. What's worse, if there's ever a "real" issue where you expect/need support (like junior crashed his bike and broke his arm), the support won't be there. This parent will be a litigator.

 

Lisa'bob makes some interesting points from the perspective of the "other side." In most of the troops I've seen, though, da SM and the other key volunteers are usin' up 120% of their free time workin' with the boys. They just don't have the time or energy to spend doin' a lot of TLC and handholding for problem parents, and every time they have to deal with such flareups they have less time for the kids. Demandin' "give us more time and handholding and communication and listen to us us us" only subtracts from the program for everyone else, and burns out the best leaders.

 

CC should lay down the law or yeh should invite them to look at other (full fee, professionally run) programs. No volunteer should have to put up with such silliness, and the potential for future problems and disruption of the troop program for other boys is too high. We're in it for the boys, and that means protectin' your program (and your time and energy) for all the boys.

 

There's always homeschool Lone Scoutin', eh?

[Venividi]

It happens in professionally run programs as well. My neighbor, a teacher, tells me he had to stay late one night at the bginning of this school year in order to demonstrate to one pair of parents that there was a problem with the school's computer system that prevented him from posting homework assignments on the class web site. Parents had called the principal. They didn't believe the reason, so principal invited them in and asked the teacher to stay late to demonstrate the problem. After demonstrating to the parents, they said they just wanted to verify that there really was a problem. Not what I would consider a good use of teacher time. I told my neighbor that I thought his principal should have denied the request as unreasonable, as there were alternative ways for their child to get the assignment - such as taking home notes, or calling a classmate.

 

Message I am trying to convey is the importance of the CC to handle such issues as often as possible so that the SM/ASM's can focus on the scouts/training/program.

[moxieman]

I took a picture of a a wood burned sign at a regional Canadian Jamboree many years ago. That sign belongs to the First Lancaster Baptist Troop of St. John, New Brunswick., Canada, which they hang up at ALL of their functions:

 

"All the Decisions around here are made by volutneers. So, don't criticize UNLESS you are willing to take their place."

 

I had problem parents like this a few times. I simply offered to remove my badge of office and give it to them. Obviously, they can do a better job, if the job I'm doing isn't good enough, right? Said problem parents would quickly back pedal.

 

Good luck, they don't go away.

 

And unrelated, but several folks mentioned football. IT's the state religion in Texas. While I was in graduate school in Lubbock (yes, pity me), I recall that most churches reschedule their Sunday Service on Super Bowl Sunday to coincide with half-time (and invite you to watch the game on the big screen in the "Fellowship Hall" before and after the service).

[GernBlansten]

One tactic I've applied when faced with a confrontational parent is to calmly ask them how they would suggest ME to react to the situation. Then I follow up with asking them how OTHERS should react. Then I finish with asking them what THEY will do personally to rectify the situation. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

In a volunteer organization, it isn't about you or me, its about us. Many parents just don't see that.