"Kids" and backpacks

[theysawyoucomin']

In another life I had a tremendous amount of time "waltzing matilda" but don't have much experience with how much weight an 11, 12, 13 wear old scout can carry. I know that kids come in all shapes and sizes and that will be a factor. The size of the fight in the dog matters a lot too. One of the biggest muscle-bound Marines I know was also the biggest whiner when it came to carrying a pack and other heavy implements of war.

Do you guys run a "shakedown" say of half the distance before hand?

Thank you in advance for any sugestions.

 

I know the orthopedic guys say 15% so please don't quote that.

I need first hand knowledge please. And I have to believe a lot of that is for seven year olds and their bookbags. Alot of these kids are beginning to grow.

 

I can't believe the Iroquois and the Cree worried too much about these things and they had young men bearing loads all the time. When Henry Hudson had his first encounter with the Mahican he did not write that they were all deformed.

[kenk]

We've tried to keep their backs under 25 pounds and that has seemed to work. For that age the idea is to have fun and to have them learn about backpacking and how to pack simple and light. If we needed extra gear we've been known to "cheat" and have a parent drive the gear to the final destination.

[Eamonn]

My big problem with Scouts and backpacking isn't the packs it's the Mom's!!

Mom's seem to think that they know best and what her little fellow can't live without for a trip.

Introducing young Scouts to the joys of back packing needs to be planned very carefully.

It seems to me that a lot of Scouters worry about the weight of the pack and forget about how far it has to be carried. The distance or how far we can hike becomes the challenge.

This is fine for older Scouts and Venturers, but will turn a young Lad off backpacking for life if the hike is too much for him.

We have a pair of brothers in the Ship. They are less than a year apart and both are skinny little fellows. One is 15 the other 16. One wears 28 inch waist pants the other a 30 inch. They both have very small frames. I'm guessing that neither one of them is much more than seven stone (98 pounds)

We were talking about working on the Ranger Award and both said that they just weren't interested. As a rule this pair is up for anything.

It seems that for their first hike they did a 15 miler!!

This was a few years back, so they were even smaller then. They both hated it and the older one didn't make it. The SM called the Lad's Dad and had him pick him up.

We as adults also need to remember that we control how we spend our hard earned cash. We can, because we know that we will use the equipment afford to spend the money on the right equipment. Parents as a rule don't buy the stuff that is needed. They will stop in at Wal-mart and buy by price.

So of course I'm OK with my $200.00 backpack, filled with the latest tech-no fleeces and fibers, wearing my super-duper hiking boots. Mean while the little fellow has a ill fitting never will fit $29.95 backpack, filled with denim jeans and is wearing a pair of boots from payless shoe store.

I strongly urge all SM's when it comes to introducing Scouts to backpacking KISMIF.

"Do you guys run a "shakedown" say of half the distance before hand? "

That depends on what the distance is!!

There is no shame in starting off with smaller hikes (I don't like the cheating idea!!) Even if by doing these we teach the Lad, "Hey if you pack it you have to carry it."

Most young Scouts don't like hiking just for the sake of hiking, they like the idea that once they get where they are going that there is something to do. Or things to do along the way.

We have a nice five mile hike, which has a great rock formation about half way and ends up near to a lake (In a State Park) There are shelters that can be rented, but we normally take tents in the summer.

It's a nice little hike, great for new hikers. We have Scouts who have done it several times, not so much for the challenge but just because it's fun.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Troop185]

On our Clothing & Equipment List for wilderness trips; in bold headlines it reads: Do not let your mother pack for you! The young scouts always get a kick out of that.

Our first overnight backpacking trip with young scouts is usually to the Sand Dunes next to Lake Michigan in June. The hike is through a lot of loose sand, in a Federal Wilderness Area, but less than two miles each way. With rest stops, it might take usover an hourto do 35 minutes of walking. We cook dinner over an open fire, wade in Lake Michigan, play in the sand dunes, and hike back out after breakfast the next morning. If the bugs (black flies)are real bad, or if rain is coming, we don't spend the night ( I have a cabin within about 35 miles.) Wet sand is not a lot of fun.

Since we are only going overnight, the scoutsonly taketheir swimming suit, towel, and a sweat shirt. The heaviest thing they carry is their sleeping bags, and 2 qts. of water. They carry the food, the adults carry the tents.

[SR540Beaver]

My son took after his mother and is a tad smaller than most of his classmates. He is 13, 5'4" and about 115 lbs. I'm 6'2" and well over 250 lbs. He can out carry and out hike me, but everyone is different. He just returned from Northern Tier and told me that he can carry much more than he ever thought. While the food packs decreased in weight with each meal, they started out at 90 lbs. Of course, they only had to be carried over a prtage rather than all day long like Philmont. They also had what they called elephant packs which contained 3 crew member's personal gear. The packs were almost as big as some of the boys.

 

Even at my son's age, I don't know if I could have done what he did. I have neck, back, shoulder and hip problems from time to time. I can even recall them bothering me to a lesser degree in my teen years. Some of us are just born that way I guess. I'm guessing that the whiner Marine was one of those. I know guys that can backpack endlessly with energy to spare at the end of the day and others who tucker out the first mile.

 

Eamonn is correct about gear. Obviously, the lighter the better and taking only what you need helps. I remember being a gear head when my son first crossed over and we bought everything that came donw the pike. Much of it sits on a shelf at home unused. Even for car camping, I take half of what I used to because I realized it never got used. We urge parents to spend the most they can on the highest quality they can when birthdays and Christmas rolls around. We are always happy to discuss gear with them and point them in the right direction of types of clothing materials and such. I urge all of the boys to get a decent quality headlamp instead of some monster flashlight that looks like it needs training wheels. A headlamp allows you to use both hands setting up a tent at night in the rain. Real handy when it counts. A small blade knife will do everything you need a knife to do unless you plan on hunting grizzly bears. Smaller is better. Lighter is better. Select things that can do double duty.

 

Have a gear shakedown where everyone brings their gear packed so you can go thru it and make deletions and/or suggestions. Taking shorter hikes and/or just going to the local park and walking a track with a loaded pack is good for getting ready to go.

 

One final note. Breathable rain gear is an absolute must and good (broken in) waterproof hiking boots are a must.

 

The Kelty Yukon (I believe) is an adjustable frame backpack that will grow with a boy and has more than enough room to handle a weekend backpacking trip.

[scoutingagain]

Our introductory backpacking trips have been about 1.5 miles through a state forest, with some stream crossings, with no net elevation change. The trail meanders up and down a bit, but it is mostly level.

 

It is only overnight, and water is available at the site, although it needs to be purified. Scouts are expected to carry everything they need. Much of the patrol gear, such as stoves and cook kits are carried by older scouts. At 1.5 miles away from the cars, with no other access, there is no cheating. Most of the packs end up in the 30 - 35lb range, and some of the scouts struggle a bit, although it is not necessarily the younger, smaller scouts. After this trip they learn quickly they don't need to bring a six pack of soda, personal food in-case they don't like what the patrol is cooking, a large knife, and an extra, extra set of everything. This goes for the adults that have not done much backpacking either.

 

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

[MaScout]

Where are you hiking? Actually, my question is who is supplying the food? Philmont food is notoriously bad. My son who's motto is, "if you're hungry you'll eat it, if you're thirsty you'll drink it, and if you're tired you'll sleep" found "Tooth of Time Chicken" unswallowable. (I believe it has been phased out.) However, what he learned was that a small bottle of seasoning salt and a bottle of cholula sauce are necessities! He put his cholula sauce in for a Rayado trek after the shakedown. The entire crew loved him! So, seasonings may be "needed".

[BrentAllen]

Not a direct answer to your question, owl, but my WB TG was big on light or ultra-light backpacking. One excercise he ran with his Scouts was to take them on an overnight hike in the spring or fall, and they could only take what they could fit in a standard shoe box.

 

They would take super-size trash bags for sleeping bags, space blankets for a ground cloth, ultra-light tarp for a tent, small stove, one pot, spork, etc.... The point was to show them how little they really needed to go on an overnight trip. Having the boys hike for 5 miles carrying that load vs. a 25 - 30# pack will get them thinking in the right direction!

 

As an answer to your question, the BSA Fieldbook recommends no more than 25% of body weight. If you don't have a copy, I highly recommend getting one. Excellent book!

 

One of the many quotes found throughout the book:

"If you cannot endure a certain amount of thirst, heat, fatigue, and hunger without getting cross with Nature, it is best to stay home."

William T. Hornaday, Campfires on Desert and Lava, 1913.

 

Brent Allen

I used to be a Fox...

[theysawyoucomin']

For those of you familiar with the Adirondacks the trip in mind is to Pharaoh Lake. Depending on whose numbers you use the trail head is about 3.5 miles from the very southern trip of the lake. Another .4 to 1 to a lean to. Another 2.2 to some of the best views in the Southern Adirondacks off Pharaoh Mtn.

We'll bring tents in case all the lean tos are filled but I hope they are not.

Some of the boys ran 3 miles in a 5k this spring which I know is not the same as humping a pack.

 

Eamonn -Not looking to repeat the Bataan Death March here. A church group went along this same trail, some fourth grade girls made the trip. Therefore some Scouts should be able to make it without too much gnashing of teeth. Friday night hump in to camp. Saturday walk up Pharaoh MT 2150 something feet (some people on this thread live that high up.)Fish, canoe around, Swim(in designated areas) and flip over rocks to see what's underneath. Boy stuff. Sunday hike out after lunch.

 

Brent we have considered the shoe box campout but have not got that off the ground.

 

This will be the first backpacking in over a generation of Scouts. At least nobody talks about any backpacking. Canoe trips but no backpacking.

 

I agree about Mommy packing the gear. The Scout doesn't know whether he has it or not and if he has it he doesn't know where it is.

 

We will probably have a gear inspection and teach the Scouts how to lighten the load.

No sleeping bags. maybe a couple yards of fleece from Walmart for a blanket. No sponge bob pillow case--It is better to be so tired that you fall asleep with your head on top of a bag with your clothes in it. No room for hyper behavior when you walked up 2 miles and picked your way back down, just well deserved sleep.

 

540- the whiner only qualified as a whiner when he began to throw his muscles around in the barracks and the E-club after a few beers but then could NOT do his fair share when it came to carrying the mortar tube or the base plate. He could bench 345. Like I said the amount of fight in the dog...

I agree with the head lamp. We will make a bulk purchase at Harbour Freight. The Three cell MAG light is too heavy.

 

Soda will be out. But then again I'd love to see it jettisoned during one of the rest stops.

 

I joke with my son about innovative ways to lighten the load:

 

"Marines used throw away the jokers from a deck of cards."

 

A common prank was to sneak a big rock into somebody's ALICE pack and watch their face to see the amazement as to why a rock was in there. Today that would be hazing.

 

 

There is nothing like a little adversity to forge a common bond between those who bear the adversity together. A nice little stretch of the legs walking with a canoe on a cart.

 

Troop---Walking in sand is tough but it builds great muscles.

 

MaScout- a Vietnam vet with a very humble southern upbringing told me," the difference between what you'll eat and what you won't eat is about 24 hours."

 

A head net will be mandatory!!!! Give Blood, 100 billion mosquitoes need to eat too!!!!

 

Brent I have the Field book, it's time to dust it off.

 

Another quote or two for you:

 

"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments - there are consequences."

 

R. G. Ingersoll

 

There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude and peace. The way of a canoe is the way of the wilderness and of a freedom almost forgotten. It is an antidote to insecurity, the open door to waterways of ages past and a way of life with profound and abiding satisfaction. When we are part of a canoe, we are part of all that canoes have ever known.

Siguard Olson

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Owl,

Thanks for the quotes - I love reading them!

 

The gear check is a great idea. Way back when our Troop (of my youth) first formed, we finally got around to our first real hike - up Springer Mountain. We did the % of weight thing, and tried to do the best planning we could.

 

Once we hit the trail, the group separated almost immediatly - a dozen of us out front, the rest behind. Front group reached the top, had lunch and waited, and waited, and waited... We decided if we were going to get to the planned camping location, we had better get moving - and we did. We made it just before dusk.

 

What we didn't know.... one of the "heavier" and younger Scouts was having real trouble with a knee. He couldn't carry his heavy pack at all. So my dad and the SM were carrying their packs and his, and also helping him up the trail. They were having a very rough time. Needless to say, they got to the top well after we had left. The SM decided to head down the trail to see if he could find us. He was dead tired, so he dropped all his gear (key word ALL) and off he went. He didn't reach us before it got dark, and with no flashlight or other light source, he had to spend the night on the side of the trail, in just the clothes on his back. Yes, he was pretty miserable. You never forget the lessons you learn at the School of Hard Knocks!

So... (I'm sure you already know this, but others might not) set your time interval for catch-ups, have a good sweeper, use the Buddy System, and start with small hikes. Good luck!

 

"We are born wanderers, followers of obscure trails, or blazers of new ones. The mind, too, is a natural wanderer, ever seeking, and occasionally discovering, new ideas, fresh insights."

Royal Robbins, U.S. mountaineer and climber whose interest in the outdoors was stimulated by Scouting.

[Eagledad]

This is one of my favorite subjects and some really good stuff has been said. I found that no matter how much training you give to scouts, they will still bring stuff like hair gel on a hike. Yes, hair gel and he was an older scout. Anyways, I like a hike where the scout has a chance to lighten the pack on a second day and feel the difference.

 

As for scouts physically fit for the trips, I have always had one scout on each trek who struggles to complete the day. He usually is the bigger athletic scout that nobody would expect to struggle. I have come to believe that fatigue and endurance are more mental than physical and usually is not exposed on short shakedown hikes.

 

I have found that external frame backpacks work better for young scouts. Internal frame packs are typically more complicated adjust the fit and have less compartments to organize gear. External packs are simple to pack and usually much simpler to adjust. As the scouts get better at packing and understanding how to adjust packs, they can move up to an external frame pack. The Kelty Yukon and Jansport Scout are two excellent starter external packs that are reasonable priced and can be re-adjusted to fit as the scout grows.

 

Also, the most important part of any pack is the hip belt. Weight is carried on the hips, not the shoulders, so when looking for a pack, make sure the hip belt fits well and has room to be cinched in. Scouts will loose an inch or two during a long hike and if the belt cant be cinched in to compensate, the scouts AND ADULTSS shoulders will suffer Greatly. Some wisdom comes from great pains than others.

 

Finally, I suggest leaders try to learn how to adjust packs because I find that I usually spend the first two hours of the first shakedown hike and the second morning of the trek hike re-adjusting the scouts packs for a more comfortable fit. It isn't always the weight, but many times the fit that discourages a scout from backpacking.

 

Fun discussion.

 

No wonder I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[SR540Beaver]

"I found that no matter how much training you give to scouts, they will still bring stuff like hair gel on a hike. Yes, hair gel and he was an older scout."

 

Come on Barry, everyone knows that the squirrels admire a well groomed scout!

[theysawyoucomin']

To bring this full circle we finished our trip to Pharaoh Lk./Mt. near Brant Lake, NY this weekend.

Man,

This old grunt's muscles ache. And my Red Sox are getting beat up.

We had a great time, the highlight was seeing loons hunt in the water at about 25 yards. On Topic: the smallest Scouts did quite well. We did not get a lean to and by the number of cars at the trailhead we kind of knew it was going to be that wat. We had some rather large 4 kid tents from Eureka, the boys split them up into poles, fly and tent bearers. I swear the poles weigh more than the tent.Some kids with too much stuff. We talked about the scene with MRS. Potatohead stuffing the back of MR. with everything:don't forget the MONKEYS.

As was said here don't let mommy pack.

At one meeting we also spoke of spending $8 for two yards of light fleece from WALMART and using that to cover up while sleeping on an August night but some still decided to bring the sleeping bag. Oh well.

Great trip nice lake, tough walk to the top but very few bugs. My son had a leech on him, he proudly proclaimed ,"I'm a host!" (good science teacher.)

Good time was had by all.

[ManassasEagle]

"proclaimed ,"I'm a host!" (good science teacher.) "

 

Maybe a good science teacher or maybe he just watches

Stargate SG-1

 

[orennoah]

I've got to agree with the posts about Moms doing the packing. That's a HUGE problem for younger Scouts and they're the ones with the least body mass and muscle mass to handle it, not to mention the lowest maturity and experience level.

 

After my frustrations with Mommy packing, I wrote and distributed a humorous, but serious, screed entitled "The Pernicious Perils of Parental Packing." When I get home tonight, I'll scrounge a copy and post it.

 

- Oren