Some things gotta go........

[sctmom]

Member of Girl Scouts of USA actually have been trying to figure out how to get the US flag BACK onto their uniforms after Sept. 11.

 

Even before Sept 11, I think the flag should stay on our sleeves. With or without the flag, our boys need to learn to respect their clothing, particularly their uniform.

 

 

[le Voyageur]

Thanks for the welcome, and I'll try and be more careful with the way I frame my thoughts and comments in the future, if I should post something in the future that seems oblique, fuzzy or just plain weird just let me know with a big "heh!"...good to meet all. Now I'll go an sit in my timeout corner for a while........

[Kevin M]

There IS a collections merit badge, and it IS pretty general in nature. I think coin and stamp collecting have stayed on because those two hobbies are very big. Where can we find stats on how many boys earn those two each year?

Many, if not most member countries of the World Organization of Scouting have their nations' flag on their uniform. Why would the USA be any different. Not just a symbol of pride, but identification. As far as ID, maybe remove the "Boy Scouts" strip over the right pocket. I could see that as being redundant.

And a more visually pleasing Scout badge could be designed, if only to a brighter color. I agree on the meaning it holds for those new Scouts.

Also remember, you can personally go for the uncluttered look by wearing only the essentials on your uniform. I know several Scouters who do that.

[slontwovvy]

You need to search around a bit for it, but you might find some merit badge statistics on meritbadge.com....at least I think that's the address.

 

Other than that, I mainly agree with Rooster7. The training strip is a valuable sign of leadership training. The American flag...hardly needs to be said. World Brotherhood...valuable, and should be worn by all scouts, but not as important as country.

[le Voyageur]

Spent a little time over at another forum loaded with hard core military patriots (combat veterns), and posed the same observation concerning the wearing of the American flag on uniforms (BSA, law enforcement, etc), t shirts, fobs, skivies and etc.

 

The consensus is that the only place for our flag is not on the above mentioned items, but properly displayed, or flying from a staff, or covering the honored dead...I guess we can agree to disagree on this subject as I still stand by my convictions...this is my final post on this subject

[OldGreyEagle]

I am really having a hard time composing this response, because I do want to communicate my idea without offending anyone and I am not sure that is possible.

 

le Voyageur uses as his final argument that he spent a lot of time in combat veterans forums and they all think a strict code of displaying the flag should be followed.

 

This is the hard part, should a combat veteran's opinion have more weight that the opinion of a non-veteran? If I was never given an opportunity to fight for my country must I defer to some one who did? I have to say I fully thank and appreciate the members of the armed forces who forged our way of life and are today risking life and limb to defend it.However, I am not in favor of taking the American Flag off the uniform just because a group of veterans say so.

 

As a scout in the late 60's around Chicago wearing our uniforms was tantamount to being bait for a beating. And having an American Flag on your car was like posting a sign that said "Break Windows Please". Now I see American flags every where I go. While traveling in the deep south I see the Stars and Bars displayed next to the Stars and Stripes. A year ago all I would see would be the Stars and Bars.

 

If the American Flag is to be the symbol of freedom amd democracy and the emblem of the greatest country on earth, then its use cant have many restrictions. That being said, I cringe when I see little flags on toothpicks in cupcakes because I know they are headed to the trash. I have seen proud bright flags posted on cars after Sept 11 fade and ripped and thrown away and that bothers me to no end.

 

My point is however, the more flags I see, the better I feel. Having the flag around reminds us we are Americans first and white, black, hispanic, or (insert ethinic heritage/minority affiliation here) second. I would like to see all American Flags treated with dignity and respect, But I will accept a few tattered flags and lapses in Flag protocol if it means their message of unity and strength is understood.

 

Take the flag off the uniform???? Are you kidding???

we should make it larger. Our scouts know they are not to let the flag touch the ground, they can be taught to respect the flag on the uniform as well.

 

Again, I do not denigrate any veteran's contributions, but I dont beleive they should have more say in flag protocal than any other citizen

[jmcquillan]

When I first joined Scouting as a leader, the flag upon my shoulder was something I wore with much pride. I still do. I fly the flag high on its pole at home, every day, and its lit up at night for all to see. That flag means many things to me, and I'm happy to see the Scouts in my troop standing side by side, saluting the flag at our color ceremonies, and wearing it on their shoulder. And I am a combat veteran. I have my purple hearts. I earned them in Vietnam. And I value them no less than "le Voyageur". I stand on the side of keeping the flag where it is, on the Scouts shoulder, for all to see.

 

[sctmom]

My Webelos are very proud to wear the flag on their sleeve.

 

I agree with OGE that flags on little toothpicks is a bit disturbing. As a Webelos leader I had to do some research on the flag etiquitte myself. This was before Sept. 11. There is part of the U.S. Code that says flags should not be printed on disposable items such as napkins, cardboard boxes, etc. that will be thrown away. Wow, ask around and see how many people know that!

 

I'm glad people are taking pride in the country and its flag, but do a little research and find out the proper way to display it. I was also amazed at the number of adults who did not know the proper way to retire a flag.

 

Brains -- we have them, let's use them!

 

[Weekender]

I'm a 21 year Air Force veteran (still serving). I think the the flag should stay but agree that the boys and adults should take care not to disrespect it. Duty to country is a big part of our program.

 

Were any of you aware of the uproar caused when US soldiers serving in desert Shield/Storm were told they could not display a US flag on their uniform. We knew about it in the service but I don't recall whether or not it was publicized. Many of the solodiers who were forced to remove the flag from their sleeves sewed them on the inside of their hats just so that everyone would know what they stood for and why they were willing to be there. God Bless'em.

 

I'd never ask John Wayne not to wear his white hat! And while our flag doesn't represent a perfect nation or people it's the best thing anyone has come up with yet.

 

Le Voyageur, I respect your opinion on this and it seems that your concern is honorable but I hope the flag stays and that we all wear it proudly.

[yarrow]

I'm not sure people think of the "flags" on toothpicks as "real" flags. I think that they are represent their patriotism without feeling the need to have it treated in the same fashion as a "real" flag. The "flag" on the uniform and on most clothing items is not an actual flag but representative of the honor that Boy Scouts hold for their country and flag. Some only have 12 stripes printed and somewhere between 40 and 50 stars. I don't panic when I see his shirt on the floor because I don't consider it a flag on the floor. He's still in trouble because he has his uniform, socks, pants, shoes, papers, backpack, coat...etc. on the floor. When do they learn. All the same when people think Scouts they think American and wholesome and honest....I like the "flag" to be on the uniform!

 

I also do not like the "Scout" rank patch but I don't like many of them. The full emblem is the most attractive and what looks good about the second class patch. If they are going to do an "add-on" patch progression I would like to see a Hollow "Compass point" for the "Scout" patch instead of the dull brown one and then add the scroll below that and so on. I don't care passionately but he's right it's kinda ugly.

 

I could skip the brotherhood patches, but some people are happiest when there is stuff all over the uniform. I prefer it plain, we don't add too many of the temp. patches of other klingons. Soon the uniform can look junky and pretentious. Just my take, others love all the patches.

[Stan Riddle]

Sorry, but when I'm told to take the flag of our country off my uniform, they can just keep the uniform. I won't need it any more.

[eisely]

le Voyageur,

 

Since you have already been chastised by the regulars I will not go there.

 

Concerning the flag on the uniform I agree with all the other posts that the flag should stay. OGE makes some good points that a group of veterans, whose opinions are valued, should not have the final word. I too am a veteran, though I was fortunate enough not to collect a purple heart.

 

Both stamp and coin collecting are major activities, with their own international societies, meetings, and exhibitions. There are more to these than just collecting bottle caps or beer coasters. They ought to be kept.

 

I would like to hear more from you in a separate post about how you organize and execute your whitewater rafting expeditions.

 

I also note that Dedicated Dad is now a senior member. Congratulations are in order.

[ozemu]

We have our national flag above the left pocket. At jamborees it seems to be fairly normal.

 

About the world 'brotherhood' badge. Do you mean the purple membership badge? We use that one and have since 1973. Trouble is every such badge on a uniform, letterhead etc costs us a royalty to WOSM. We are about to make a national scout membership badge to replace it so I suppose we are going your way.

 

Thought the international perspective might be useful.

[FScouter]

There is a lot of improper display of flags, and casual disposal of worn flags. And there are a lot of flags displayed that are far past the point of being worn out. Instead of campaigning to remove the flag from Boy Scout uniforms, maybe we should channel some of that energy into flag etiquette education, and the collection and retirement of worn flags.

[Kevin M]

ozemu:

International perspective from where? As I mentioned before, and most who have been to Nat'l or world jamborees or traveled abroad can probably attest, most countries do wear their national flag on the uniform, and in my opinion should continue to do so. As far as other patches, there are relatively few that are mandated on the uniform. The others are optional. Some like to wear more, some like less. My uniform is currently in need of a reduction. I might keep one shirt "decked out", but the other, mainly for in the field and every-day stuff, is getting cleaned up soon.