washing dishes

[gwd-scouter]

Question about the 3 pan method of washing up after cooking.

 

Pan 1: hot soapy water

Pan 2: hot clear water for rinsing

Pan 3: here's the question. I've seen 2 different methods being used.

 

1) cold water with clorox, 2) hot boiling water (no clorox).

 

Learned the cold water with clorox in the 3rd pan when I went to outdoor training. But, see other troops during district events that dip everything in a final rinse of plain boiling water.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions as to which is correct, better, or does it matter.

 

Thanks.

[Beavah]

Lose da clorox. Poor Leave-No-Trace technique. For that matter, lose the soap for the same reason.

 

If you're really sharp, lose the 3 pans.

[SeattlePioneer]

Sorry Beavah --- bad advice in my opinion.

 

Scout patrols need to be aware of the hazards of food borne illness and take the precautions needed to prevent the spread of illness.

 

As I understand it, Scouting recommends the use of bleach in a final rinse as a means of reducing that risk ---not boiling water, which probably isn't boiling very long and which doesn't stay on the dishes long enough to kill off bacteria.

 

So in my view, use the bleach and detergent and leave no trace values will just have to lump it.

 

Human safety and welfare comes first.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Beavah]

Except dat BSA troops are expected to follow Leave No Trace, because it's part of the program and because it's part of being a good citizen these days.

 

My understandin' is dat the folks who developed Leave No Trace and those that practice it have spent a heck of a lot of time in the woods without makin' anybody sick. Seems like followin' the advice of experts is a good thing to teach, too.

 

Unless of course we want to hang on to our reputation for bein' outdated, bad citizens in the woods, who give land managers fits.

 

 

[kenk]

Proper sanitation is critical to keeping youth AND leaders healthy. Those who think that proper cleaning of eating and cooking utensils is hogwash are fine doing whatever they wish with their own utensils, but should not risk others' health with their misguidance.

 

I've done a bunch of research on this, looking at Scout recommendations and health department recomendations. Plus I own a pool, and good pool owners get to understand chlorine sanitation chemistry pretty well. The idea is to wash, rinse, sanitize, and then air-dry. Sanitations options are chlorine solution, quaternary solution (the tablets used at some Scout camps), and boiling water . Here is what I recommend:

 

3 plastic tubs:

#1 - warm soapy water

#2 - hot rinse water, very hot to hand but not scalding

#3 - lukewarm chlorine sanitizing solution

4'x4' plastic sheets for a clean surface

 

1. Scrape dishes into waste container so they "look" clean

Wash cleanest to dirtiest.

 

2. Wash in comfortably warm (100-120F) detergent water. Replace wash water when suds are no longer present, or if water is cold.

 

3. Rinse in warm water (hot to the hand, not scalding)

 

4. Soak in luke warm (75F-100F) 100-200 PPM bleach/water solution for at least 1 minute - preferably 2 minutes. Chlorine needs the time to work. The reaction rate (and corrosive properties) doubles for each 18F increase in temperature up to 125F.

1/2-1 tbsp bleach per gallon water (min 1.5 tsp/gallon)

3 tbsp bleach for porous surfaces like wood

1/4 cup bleach per gallon for really nasty surface (rodent areas)

Too cold, chlorine won't sanitize

Too hot, chlorine converts to gasious state & leaves solution

 

4a. A better option is to use a quaternary tablet available at restaurant stores, since this solution isn't so damaging to clothing. Here are some links:

 

http://www.sanitize.com/features.html (info only)

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=steramine

 

4b. A not-so-good option is to use of VERY hot water (no less than 170F) for at least 30 seconds. This method risks serious scalding injury. 150F water causes 3rd degree burns in 2 seconds. 140F water burns within 6 seconds.

 

5. Air dry (in nylon mesh bag or on sanitized surface) - do not use dishtowel - or place on sanitized (wiped with sanitizing solution left on for 2 minutes before use) plastic surface.

 

6. Clean tubs backwards. Rinse soapy water tub with rinse water. Swirl each tub with chlorine solution and let air dry.

 

7. If no specific graywater dump facility, spread dishwater at least seventy-five steps from camp, lake, or stream, after screening for solids.

 

Don't let anyone tell you that failure to rinse off the chlorine solution leaves chlorine on the surface of the utensils. As the chlorine solution dries the chlorine escapes as a gas. Any whitish residue is likely lime salts from hard water.

[John-in-KC]

Beavah and KenK both have part of the answer here:

 

- If the patrol/troop is camping on somewhat developed property (state park for example) and greywater drainage is available, then follow full sanitary procedures.

 

- If the patrol/troop is backpacking/horseback riding/canoeing in the backcountry, and greywater drainage isn't available, OR, patrol/troop is training for backcountry expedition, then follow LNT sanitary procedures.

 

FWIW: Back in the day, Second Class cooking requirements included cooking without pots/pans. Amazing things can be done with a long skewer and aluminum foil, and foil CAN be packed out of the backcountry.

[Beavah]

Those who think that proper cleaning of eating and cooking utensils is hogwash are fine doing whatever they wish with their own utensils, but should not risk others' health with their misguidance.

 

OK, let's be clear. Nobody is suggesting that we should not teach scouts the proper cleaning of cooking and eating utensils to protect against health risks. But good gracious, most families I know don't go through the regimen kenk suggests in their own homes.

 

What those of us who practice LNT camping are suggesting is that it is perfectly possible to properly clean utensils without behaving like we are an urban commercial/industrial kitchen, and thereby avoid dumping a bunch of soap and chlorine into our wild lands. In fact, we're not just suggesting that, we're insisting on it as a form of good citizenship. Dat soap and halogen of yours is messin' up my favorite fishin' holes.

 

I dunno about you, but we've had kids and adults out in da woods for lots of years, without ever touchin' halogen sanitizers or more than a couple' o' drops o' soap a year. Perfectly safe.

 

Which is why that's the practice, for example, at Philmont, and Northern Tier, and on every National Forest and Wilderness area brochure.

 

 

[Trevorum]

As a LNT certified trainer, I'd like to remind everyone that LNT is not a set of hard and fast rules (no "thou shalt not use soap!") but rather is a set of guidelines that are adopted for the circumstances. What is appropriate in the Philmont backcountry for experienced backpackers is not necessarily the case for a group of Tenderfoot scouts at a State Park campground. Or vice versa.

 

It's important to understand this. I've had people tell me they will NEVER use LNT in their troop because they refuse to "poop in a tube". Someone had evidently told them that LNT includes this practice but didn't bother to say that it only applies to camping in caves, arctic, constricted canyons and the like.

[ScoutNut]

"most families I know don't go through the regimen kenk suggests in their own homes."

 

 

Most families that I know have a dishwasher that uses soap with a sanitizing agent in it & water temperature that would scald a youth's hands in their own homes.

 

What I do in my home affects only me & my family. What I do when camping with Scouts affects OTHER families children. Big difference.

 

BSA teaches the 3 pot method in their outdoor trainings for a reason. Most boys, especially young ones, could care less if their plate & fork really gets clean. Swishing quickly & then getting on with fun stuff is the preferred method of doing things. With soap & sanitizing they have a better chance of not spending their camping time sitting in an outhouse.

 

When backpacking in the wilderness, the boys are older, more experienced, & hopefully more aware of sanitary needs. You would plan differently than for young, inexperienced boys at front country, developed sites.

 

BTW - There are biodegradable soaps & sanitizers that are readily available.

 

[Lisabob]

I gotta go with Scoutnut on this one. I can just picture my 11yo (tenderfoot), gleefully exclaiming that "hey, we don't need to use soap!" Soap is not a substance with which many boys that age willingingly interact.

 

Lisa'bob

[Herms]

Sorry Seattle Pioneer but as adults we must teach our kids to Leave No Trace! Bottom line is get the dishes clean. If you are in an area that allows grey water, use the soap, use the bleach or boiling water to get the dishes clean.

 

As you start backpacking the back country (ie Grand Canyon, Philmont) you will learn to sanitize with just hot water.

 

AS WELL AS LEARNING HOW TO **** SWILL **** lol

[MaScout]

Ahh! The pleasures of swilling! I thought my niece was going to gag the first time we showed her how to clean up in the backcountry!

[gwd-scouter]

Wow, who knew washing dishes could be a controversial topic?

 

Anyway, pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is swilling?

[MaScout]

Swilling is the time-honored tradition of adding a little water to whatever is left in the pot or in your cup, swishing it around, and drinking it. Nothing left to run through the sump, no wonderful little tidbits to put in the "yum-yum bag" and pack out.

[FScouter]

"Swill" may not be the best term to use. How about "soup is the last course of the meal." I teach boys that the first step in washing dishes is to serve ALL the food in the pot, and to eat everything you're served. Wipe your plate with a roll.