Why do LDS Scouts get lost/killed more often?

[alki]

concerned - Thanks for addressing this. I believe that you have been prompted by a higher power. I would really like to help in pursuing this through the most diplomatic means possible.

 

My personal observation has been that a small number [statistically] of highly-motivated LDS unit leaders have shouldered running the Scouting program. This is often with little or no tangible support from parents or ecclesiastical leaders. I think it's obvious that the significant factor in the deaths mentioned is a lack of adequate, qualified supervision. [Though I hope that reputable studies will continue to explore the relationships between Scouting casualties and other factors.]

 

Within the current parameters of LDS Church policy and BSA policy, however, what are some possible solutions?

 

A letter from LDS Church leadership is enough to establish doctrine and policy to all LDS ecclesiastical units. If a link is acknowledged between these incidents and poor adult leadership, what could this letter possibly say to prevent this? How could it be approached without crippling the program [ie getting rid of high adventure all together]?

 

I really like the BSA Ready & Prepared Award, but I'm undecided as to how that should be tied in to this discussion [so I just thought I'd blurt it out].

 

Bro. Campbell

Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor - Canyon, Texas

BYU '99

Boy Scout - Indian Trails & Sagamore Councils [LDS units]

Varsity Scout - Chief Seattle Council [LDS unit]

Explorer Search & Rescue - Kitsap County Sheriffs Dept [non-LDS unit]

Unit Commissioner - Utah Nat'l Parks Council [LDS units]

Unit Commissioner - Golden Spread Council [LDS units]

Scoutmaster - France [LDS units]

 

P.S. Myself, another adult, and 4 boys just completed mountain biking the White Rim Road in Canyonlands NP. Got all of our permits, didn't make any mention of Scouts [less rangers trying to talk you out of doing stuff]. Had a great time because we were prepared and had trained for months. One boy suffered a week-long corneal ulcer [upon return] because he didn't realize he needed to take his contacts out during our afternoon naps. This brings up another point: 1) Are there other casualties that should be grouped with the statistics we're looking at but aren't because they didn't identify themselves as scouts?

 

 

 

 

[concerned_scout66]

Alki,

 

A fine Seattle name! I used to dive there all the time in my younger days and spent quite a few years as a Varsity Coach in Chief Seattle. Welcome to the discussion.

 

"Within the current parameters of LDS Church policy and BSA policy, however, what are some possible solutions?"

 

I don't have any answers on this one yet. Salt Lake has responded to one suggestion I sent but is not interested in any position that has the Church admitting fault. Despite the statistics, the LDS Church holds that this is a BSA problem that must be resolved by BSA. Irving has not responded to my request for statistics and may be too busy dealing with other problems at the moment.

 

For the time being, I'm just continuing to gather facts and data while keeping my head low. You and I may think this calling is prompted by a higher power but my Stake President begs to disagree. My biggest worry right now is that I will be forced to choose between my church and my life-long passion for Boy Scouting.

 

Concerned

[alki]

concerned - I don't believe that "going up the chain of command" ecclesiastically is the best way to approach this problem.

 

Firstly, let's make sure the units WE work with are the safest possible. I asked our ecclesiastical leader to "call" a health & safety officer for our committee. He did. This officer's goal is to help us earn the Ready & Prepared Award [to give structure to his ultimate aim of making us safer]. He just happens to have 35 years experience of this for the DOD and DOE.

 

Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if something isn't already "in the works." The new General YM President for the LDS Church also works for their legal counsel. Let me make some calls to see if there's a solution forthcoming and, if so, how we can facilitate this.

 

Thirdly, talk to every new LDS scout leader and every BSA DE you can. Any BSA DE that works with LDS units should be aware of the turnover rate and be doubling up their efforts to train these leaders. Every new LDS scout leader should be directed to the DE to get proper training. There's no "hand-off" period in LDS units, so the only way for effective training to happen is through the District.

 

Don't give up on either organization. They may be divinely inspired, but they're still human...

[johnmbowen]

Well, I didn't get into this thread till it was mostly all over, however, it is one of the things that I have always been concerned about with scouting. There is a huge overemphasis in protecting boys from pedophiles, which is sometimes necessary, but rather rare. It stems from the problem that the main office listens too much to the hard core relegious right. Of more concern is the fact that every active Troop of Crew takes out kids into the outdoors on trips at least once a month, as asked for. Most of these folks stay within their experience envelopes, and provide their kids with rather trivial outing experiences, not what is shown in their handbooks. Any adventurous activities are bought from outfitters, including canoeing, rafting, climbing etc.

 

There is of course a few groups which actually try to do the things that are listed in the handbook other than backpacking. These include climbing, (yes backpacking), skiing, mountaineering, caving, whitewater canoeing, kayaking, caving, vertical caving, and international mountaineering. (All of which my Troop 136 from Laramie, WY has done, and with a perfect safety record).

 

What is required is knowlegible adult leadership and the willingness of the adults to actually teach the kids the techniques, skills, knowledge and to have them train hard to be more than just a tourist. When you take kids ice and snow climbing - well you have to train them in the skills needed. That means that you must KNOW the skills, and well. Rather than rely on fathers who are reliving their childhood, we have relied on adult experts in the field (none of whom have ever proved to be pedophiles), and we have shown that we can actually do all of the skills and outings mentioned in this thread, including spending the night confortably, and without frostbite in far subzero conditions, and at 14000 feet.

 

What is needed is advanced training for adult scouters who take their scouts regularly into the outdoors. This includes long courses such as Wilderness First Aid, or better Wilderness First Responder (City first aid and First Aid MB are introductions), Swift Water Rescue (Safety Afloat is a joke), and comprehensive climbing classes - few if any which are offered, or even mentioned by BSA.

 

There is a real reason why my friends who are Park or Forest Rangers cringe, and get prepared for rescue when a Scout unit enters into their area - Scouters are NOT PREPARED. When I got a permit for my Crew to run Westwater Canyon, the Ranger asked me if we were going to use canoes (?!) - I told her no, that we adults were also professional whitewater guides, and she told me that one scout unit asked that very question!

 

It is time for Scout Leaders to grow up and learn what they are trying to teach.

[OldGreyEagle]

::Sitting in corner thoroughly chastised, tho no idea why. Also wondering if that sound in the distance is an axe being ground.

[fgoodwin]

Boy Scout Gets Knife Lodged In Brain

 

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_356200328.html

 

An incredible and un-suspecting accident leaves a Utah Boy Scout just inches from death when he was stabbed right between his eyes.

 

Jeff Jaeger spoke to Kevin Coulter and tells 2News how this was a truly freak accident.

 

While raking leaves for a Boy Scout event, one of the leaders flung a knife from his hand while trying to catch another scout who had tripped.

 

It was dark, it was like 8:30 and there was a light and I saw it flash before it hit me, said Kevin.

 

The blade landed in between his frontal lobes. It was 2 millimeters away from hitting a major blood vessel in his brain.

 

Kevin's doctors told him it was sheer luck where the knife hit.

 

That's the sinuses that it went through and that I guess is where the brain lobe is right there, said Kevin pointing to an X-Ray.

 

It was a freak accident in every way. Few people can admit they've seen anything like it, a 1 inch blade through someone's skull.

 

That's the best spot you know, if you're going to have a knife in your head, said Kevin.

 

It amazingly wasnt as painful as it looks; he says he just felt pressure.

 

In all, Kevin's kept a light heart about the whole situation. He got to miss out on a few weeks of school and yes, he walked away with the knife as a souvenir.

[Greying Beaver]

O.K., My turn. My information comes from my son-in-law who is an LDS-er (our family is not), the District Advancement Chair who works at the local scout shop, the Council Eagle Application screener who is also my WoodBadge T.G., and part of the Venture Advisor Training taken at Philmont Scout Ranch on dealing with LDS-sponsored units back in 2004.

 

A lot of what has been said in the previous postings is true, even some of the information that was considered to be false is true. I guess that it would be best to break everything down into catagories.

 

1. Adult Leadership. Adult leaders are "conscripted(That is exactly what it is.)" by the stake(congregation)'s bishop(pastor) after the bishop's prayerful consideration as to who should be the next SM. National average for service is suppose to be for a year. National average actual length of service is between 7-to-9 months. It was rare for a newly assigned-by-the-bishop SM to go to any BSA leader-specific training. These leaders are given a handbook and a SM's handbook and are expected to make the program as outlined by the LDS church work. The LDS-ers use the scouting programs as part of their priesthood development program that is found in all LDS congregations. Two-deep leadership is rarely used and the Buddy System is also rarely used (More below.).

The week my wife, Cutest Bobwhite, and I took Venture Advisor Training at Philmont, was also the week that "Scouting in the LDS Church" was presented. The LDS'ers refused to socialize with those of us "outside the community (of LDS'ers)". They were all but segregated in the tent city and all but segregated themselves from everybody else. Cutest BobWhite and I tried to strike up a conversation with an older LDS couple before breakfast one morning. We got their names, where they were from, and my, isn't the weather wonderful here. My son-in-law's mother is like that whenever we see her out shopping. His father is far more open and we have discussed those things of common interest at length(scouting and our granchildren), but he, too, can be stand-offish at times.

LDS unit leaders never appear at our district's RoundTable meetings. LDS unit leaders never attend any training sessions, none.

 

2. The LDS boy scout program. Every boy in every LDS stake is a registered boy scout in the age-appropriate unit. The stake pays the registration fees for every boy, active or not. Ah-Hah!!. That come to a large chunk of change, don't kid yourself. Every stake sponsors a pack, at least one troop, a (Varsity) team, and a crew. Their Webelos program is two years long, with the boy being assigned to the troop when he turns 11. When he turns 14, the boy is assigned to the Varsity team. When he turns 16, he is assigned to the crew. When he turns 19, he is presented with a bicycle, a bicycle helmet, a name badge with his name and the title "Elder" on it and shipped to a location in another time zone to start his 2-year mission. The boy is expected to have finished his Eagle work when he turns 15 and no later than 16. Woe be the LDS scout who does not have his Eagle by 16. My son-in-law finished his Eagle work just before he turned 18 and it was an "issue" in his home with his parents. The stake was putting pressure on them.

 

3. Camping. It is a sin to "labor" on the Sabbath. To the LDS chrch, "labor" includes being in a situation to not attend an organized worship service, like being on a camp-out on a Sunday. Most LDS-sponsored units will leave for camp on a Friday evening, spend Saturday night at camp, get up very early to get home in time for worship service. On average, LDS troops spend about less than 1/3 the time camping that a non-LDS-sponsored unit. That is why LDS-sponsored units rarely if ever go to the national high adventure camps, like Philmont, because of the "laboring " restrictions. Carrying all of one's gear on a backpapcking trek is a sin because one is carrying all of one's belongings on one's back on the Sabbath; it is a day of rest. My son was on staff at Philmont last summer and added that because of the tight schedule that the trek crews are on, space and facilities are not available to allow trek crews to "lay-over" an extra night at any of the back-country camps.

LDS troops are, on average, much smaller than non-LDS units. National average is around eight(8). As pointed out above, the boys are divided into same-age troops. The troops are led by the adults. Patrols are administrative units only. It is rare for an LDS troop to have two patrols. Yes, SPL's are elected, but SM's run the program. Please, don't tell me what is going on in you district or council. These are numbers gleaned by National. There are the exceptions to every rule and extremes in every average. Because of the small number of boys in a unit, the Buddy System is not seen as being needed; everybody goes everywhere as a group (The troop being an extension of the community.). Two-deep leadership is not used because the SM is seen as being in charge of a relgious group.

 

4. The LDS church and the BSA. Remember that each LDS stake(congregation) pays the registration for every boy in the stake, active or not. That is between 11 and 12% of total registration monies sent to BSA. Because of that the LDS church and the BSA had fallen into a kind of informal agreement: LDS'er pay cash for all uniforms, literature, etc., and do not fiddle with the requirements for rank anvancement, especially for Eagle; BSA pretty much lets LDS-sponsored units run the program pretty much as they please. Ten percent of a budget is still . . . ten percent of a budget.

 

That was until last summer.

 

My Unit Commissioner Basic Training was held at an LDS stake "parish hall" last October. Of the 15 in the class, only three of us were from "outside the community". We stuck out like sore thumbs. Our uniforms had been through the washer many times, Our's were decorated with knots, O.A. flaps, WoodBadge beads, and our troop numbers had 25-year tabs above them. One of these LDS'ers had never seen WB beads before and asked mey what they were. The other twelve had uniforms that were so new that they hadn't been through the washing machine yet . . . and already had the UC patch sewn on the left sleeve! Guess how and why they were taking UC training! They were from Troop XXXX at such-and-such stake. The training was by-the-book. But there was a very strong emphasis on getting other parents involved in unit operations, on troop and patrol organization, how the Patrol Method works, Two-Deep Leadership and the Buddy System, how they work and why they are mandatory on troop outings(!). That should tell anybody what is going on now and what had not been going on in the past.

 

And don't look for the LDS church to sever its ties with BSA; The Eagle means too much to them. They don't want give up the Eagle's reputation . . . outside the "community".

 

I have pontificated long enough. I shall go back down into the ol' lodge now and chew on a twig.

 

-G.B.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Well, that sure would explain a lot. Very interesting.

[GernBlansten]

Fascinating GB. Thanks for sharing. My own independant research has confirmed much of what you wrote. In our council, 50% of the troops are LDS (no we are not in Utah). The local LDS stake also offers their meeting hall for our district wide annual training event, that seemed strange to me with their perceived history of not requiring training for adults. But from what you imply, perhaps that has changed. One other difference from your observation, every LDS unit around here breaks camp on Saturday before dinner. They never stay Saturday night.

[Kahuna]

To be fair, there are some LDS units that are well experienced. We took a group from South Florida on our bus to camp years ago. They were a great group of kids. They melded with another LDS group at camp and then came back home with us. They had some kind of dispensation to allow them to travel on Sunday and not attend regular church. We got very close with them and were invited to a couple of their Eagle ceremonies later.

 

My dentist in Florida was an LDS Scoutmaster who went through all the training and eventually became a great district chairman. He had seven boys, so I guess he was stuck in it for a lot years anyway.

 

Another interesting issue Greying Beaver omitted is temple underwear. Has nothing to do with safety, as far as I know, but once an LDS achieves the priesthood and admitted to the Temple, he thereafter wears a special type of one-piece underwear. It's quite long in the legs and prevents wearing normal shorts. I believe they have modified it somehow in recent years, but way back you would never see Mormon adults in shorts. Only reason I know about is a local Woodbadge course some years ago had a staffer that was LDS and wasn't going to wear shorts. The Course Director gave him an ultimatum and (I don't know how he worked it out) the guy wore shorts the rest of the course week.

[RickChappell]

OldGreyEagle,

I don't think there's any question of that axe being ground. I gave up a while back realizing that this thread has very little to do with safety. Safety is an excuse. Sababth day observance, mission service and even underwear has all been under attack. After all, there's obviously a great conspiracy with the BSA.

It seems to me that we like to pick and choose those elements of the Scout Oath and Law that we like, and sort of ignore the rest.

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Rick,

I don't think anyone here is making fun of the traditions of the LDS. The fact that BSA condones the LDS to make changes to the program, sometimes dramatic changes, rubs some of us the wrong way. It isn't a comment on the validity of the LDS church or their beliefs. If anything, its critical of BSA for allowing such deviations. A discussion on why LDS units differ from traditional BSA units is worthy and frankly quite interesting.

[RickChappell]

Glen,

I'll respectfully disagree. As a matter of fact, your comment "The fact that BSA condones the LDS to make changes to the program, sometimes dramatic changes..." is a key point. You have made an allegation that I believe to be false, and you have provided no justification for it.

I've been on a council program commitee, spent 10 years as a district trainer, served as a Unit and Assistant District Commissioner several times, as well as a Scoutmaster or Committee Member for 20 years. What program changes are you speaking of? The only change in the program that I'm aware of is the requirement to have 5 boys to register a unit.

All other aspects of the program are the same. The same safety requirements apply. The same training requirements apply. The same staffing requirements apply. The same rank requirements apply. The same merit badge requirements apply. They use the same handbooks and manuals.

 

Some items mentioned:

Camping on Sunday - I have virtually every publication BSA publishes for public use, and can see that nowhere as a program function.

Wearing shorts - Likewise. As a matter of fact, the Woodbadge Course Director Kahuna mentioned was violating BSA policy and was clearly discriminatory.

Registration Fees - There is no discussion of who is required to pay registration fees. I know many non-LDS units who provide registration fees through their budgets.

Selection of leaders - There has been a lot of discussion on the fact that LDS Scouters are called as opposed to volunteering. BSA's policy is to have the Chartered Organization identify and select their leaders. As a matter of fact, if you'll look at BSA's training materials (particularly the videos), you'll see a situation very similar.

 

Additionally, all of the same challenges apply. Lack of supervision and discipline is across the board. The Youth Protection, Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, Climb On Safely, Trek Safely, Health and Safety training, etc. were published by the BSA for a reason. These are problems across the board. The premise of this thread that it's an LDS problem is founded on a faulty premise. It's a scouting problem. While the safety percentages really aren't that bad (compared to other organizations of this size), even 1 accident is too many.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Rick,

I was refering to specific LDS religious requirements for advancement. Wasn't that one of the problems that LDS units faced back in the 1970s when they didn't allow blacks to become leaders in the LDS church? A black scout could not serve in a leadership role in the LDS church and therefore could not advance in a LDS unit. Traditional BSA units cannot add requirements but LDS does, don't they? Also, traditional units do not segregate the scouts by age like LDS units do. I think that type of segregation doesn't allow older scouts to lead younger ones. Those are dramatic differences in the way LDS units deliver the program from the rest of us. Why can't the LDS units just deliver the program like the majority are required too?

[RickChappell]

No, there are no specific LDS requirements for advancement in Scouting. And the issue of blacks holding the priesthood is unrelated. Specifically, priesthood positions and leadership are not related. Scouts who are not members of the LDS Church can participate in LDS units and may hold any of the same leadership positions (during my last stint as a Scoutmaster 2 years ago, we had more non-LDS Scouts than LDS Scouts). As a matter of fact, the priesthood leadership manuals have specifcally provided suggestions to ensure that non-LDS Scouts in leadership positions in the troop are able to participate in planning and leading.

If you know of someone doing otherwise, they should probably review the BSA or LDS Church policies.

I don't necessarily agree that non-LDS units don't segregate by age. I know of many units that have their patrols grouped by age. It naturally occurs that way. Many units have a Webelos Den cross over and stay as a patrol all the way through their Scouting life. That ends up with the same effect.

Yes, LDS units register Scouts, Varsity Crews and Venture Teams, and the boys move through them by age. But that has nothing to do with interaction between the groups. There is no reason for the groups not to work together and provide the type of leadership you mention.

You suggest that there is only one way to do Scouting properly. If you review the Commissioner training materials, they mentioning understanding the difference between program variations and seriuos deviations. Should a group starting a new troop from a group of graduated Webelos be prohibited from starting a new troop because there are no older boys? How about an existing troop that hasn't been getting new boys and only has older boys? You suggest that is required of you. In my 20 years I have yet to see a unit forced to alter its program due to the lack of an approved age spread.

All of these cases allow leadership to be trained and practiced. There are many flavors of Scouting. I know troops that don't do much hiking, and others that do it all the time. I know units that do a lot of swimming, and some that do a lot of cycling. Venture Crew 122 of the San Francisco Bay area devotes a large chunk of their time providing leadership training (White Stag - check it out, they are a great resource).

So, what's the beef really? It's the same program.