Advancement_Lady Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Our troop is planning a weekend canoeing trip for May. This trip is for all of the boys in the troop. Do you have to have the Canoeing MB in order to go on a troop canoeing trip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperParatus Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 No. But all participants do need to be classified as a Swimmer (non-swimmers can go but must be in a canoe with a BSA-certified lifeguard). Also, the adults leading the trip should be trained in Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense. Hope you have a great time.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troop251scout Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Like semper said, they dont need to have the canoeing mb to go. but, you as leaders should be trained like semper said and also, make sure that the boys can all swim and use a canoe. Maybe a practice day where they show that they know how to do it. Dont want to get out on the river and realize a kid doesnt know how to canoe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advancement_Lady Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 So its safe to say that they would atleast need their swimming MB. Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperParatus Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 No again...just need to have passed the First Class swim test (or going in a canoe with a BSA-certified lifeguard or other agency-certified lifesaver). Note that the Swim Test should have been perfromed in the past year. Although, this trip can be a great opportunity to work on both canoing and swimming merit badge requirements. Here is the rule from the Guide to Safe Scouting: "Swimming Ability A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult "swimmer" or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult certified as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. In all other circumstances, the person must be a swimmer to participate in an activity afloat. "Swimmers" must pass this test: Jump feetfirst into water over the head in depth, level off, and begin swimming. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. This qualification test should be renewed annually." (This message has been edited by SemperParatus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1973 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Our troop schedules the local rec center pool for all our troop meetings two months prior to the summer. We all take the first class swim test again, and then we work on MBs or BSA Lifeguard or mile swim or any other needed requirement. That way we are ready to go for any of our summer/water trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Also, review the GTSS, follow the advice given by the other posters thus far, and you should be in good shape. Would like to recommend the following book....River Rescue, by Les Bechdel and Slim Ray, this will give your crew a chance to bone up on hazards such as strainers, horizon lines, etc., plus river rating systems...also, as a heads up, few lifeguards, including BSA lifeguards are trained and exerienced in river dynamics and swift water rescues. Just make sure they don't get in over their heads (no pun intended)....common sense in the name of the game.... have fun, and enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Advancement_Lady, not meaning to rain on the parade, cause you have gotten good solid advice here...I would make some cautions however for you to think about... 1. has anyone in your unit 'done' this river in the past...is is easy, or difficult?...a bad experience can 'kill' a scouts interest in canoeing...if they are not ready (and the younger scouts really can't answer this question) you don't want to put them on a river they are not physically or mentally ready to run. 2. Have they had any canoe training? If this is not a flat water river, take care putting scouts on a trek they might not want to finish...I once came upon a scout group on the river after a "dump and canoe pin"...after we helped them free the boat they were forced to camp on the shore right there...cause on of the boys was so frightened they could not talk him back into the boat...and a walkout would require more daylight than was left! Some rivers are like a lake float only better... you don't even have to paddle, some with mild rapids and livery services can be done by anyone...but some easy rivers are just too taxing for young scouts...we feel it is better to have the smaller, less skillful, less physically ready boys wait a bit and look forward to their first canoe trip, rather than to putting them untrained and unready on a river and perhaps ruining canoeing for them in the future. I do flat water training for any of our new scouts desiring to go on our trips and I find that almost 100% of the new scout crop can not handle a boat even with three 'days'(four hours of stoke training and practice per day) of flatwater training without an adult (or older scout) actually running the boat...they sit in the front and pretend to paddle... I have watched new (small) scouts nearly in tears because they can not get a canoe to run straight, and/or not have the stamina to paddle up stream (ferry) to get across a river. In our troop we require parents to go along if the younger scouts want to participate in the canoe trips deemed too tough for newer scouts. In all cases the 'Trek leader' can elect not to allow a scout who in the trek leaders mind is not ready to go along...sounds harsh but on the rivers we run it is a long way out if you have to leave the river...and we do several easy canoe activities (helps to have your own boats)so they have other oportunities... And remember, every event does not have to be for every scout...you need to have events for the young guys and events for the older guys...because when the boys have 40-50 nights camping ,several summer camps under their belts and a few wild hairs... just going over to the campgrounds for yet another campfire doesn't 'do it' for them. And the younger boys should have things to dream about and work towards.... good paddling and tight lines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Speaking about ferries...the weather is getting nice enough to get out on the water, and get a few hours of practice in doing ferries and poling....might even dump the boat a few times for the heck of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Hello, hello, is the trip on a river or on a lake? I don't think she has given us that information. Advancement_Lady, any specifics? Type of water, number of boys, adults, will it be overnight, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Eagle Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I would suggest looking at the online Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense trainings. Also check out the Guide to Safe Scouting and the booklet on Tours and Expeditions. These have additional information. I think that for the 6th point of the safety afloat program the online training was suggesting some rather specific things. It said that for any trip on running water all participants must either pass a basic handling test for the type of boat to be used, or they must have a certain number of hours of supervised practice (3 seems to come to mind, but that may not be right) before venturing into running waters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advancement_Lady Posted January 27, 2005 Author Share Posted January 27, 2005 Sorry for the delay in answering your questions. I really dont think they have decided where to go at this time. It's all still in the planning stage. It's supposed to be a weekend trip. I dont know if they will be canoeing the whole weekend or just for one day. 90% of the boys have never been in a canoe. I was just trying to make sure of what needed to be done before they decided where to do, so I could bring up every possible question. We do have one leader that is BSA Certified Lifeguard. Several other leaders are trained in Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense. But I'm not sure any of them know how to canoe. The boys have to take the First Class Swim Test every year. (This message has been edited by Advancement_Lady) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 That 90% part caught my attention. I would not take them on a river in that case. A lake event would be preferable. You might be able to pull off an overnight but it will depend on how far you plan to go and how quickly they learn, a little risky. Personally, I'd plan on a day trip on the water, perhaps using a campground at a lake as a base. But I tend to stress safety over everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Advancement_Lady, Opportunity knocking here... loudly! www.acanet.org American Canoe association you might want to contact them for a list of trainers in your area, may even have classes if you have lots of boating places around! Otherwise, make early contact with an outfitter and see if you can arrange canoe classes two half day sessions should work to put the boys on an easy flat water river... You could do an April training session(s) depending on temps and move right into a May river trip...leaders and 'families' going along should take training also.... final option could be to see if your council summercamp would let you come in in april or May to train (make sure you have a set of trainers along with you)in their canoes before your first trip... but please let the troop leaders know that a bad time on the river even without an injury (or worse) is not good. One of my youngest sons best friends in our troop was dumped in a rapids when he was a rising new scout,( his mother took him along 'cause she wanted to go),This was a family type not scout trip... He did not know a bit about real canoeing, he was wearing a PFD, it was low water in summer (thigh deep-easy to stand up in water) class 2 rapid, and he floated down 'text book perfect'...AND HAS NOT BEEN IN A CANOE SINCE...over four years now. This boy now stands 6'1" and weighs 195 lbs. and is afraid of canoes. Train them !Evaluate them! And don't put boys on the river who are not ready...take them to a commercial rafting place and let them do a small white water trip that way, if you must. Rememeber each event does not have to be for the whole troop! Make plans for multiple skill level outings...send younger/less ready boys fishing and hiking while the more skilled tackle the river... on lake canoeing...funny as it may sound, a slow river is easier for newbies than a lake. On the lake, the canoe must be propelled and controled by the boys not just 'directed'or controled as can be done on many rivers. You may find that younger boys have an easier (more fun) time with kayaks than canoes. I find smaller boys need growing time to be comfortable in canoes and spend much of their time going around in circles (literally). go carefully, go slow! good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinnaker Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Advancement_Lady A story to reinforce the need for some lessons. AT BSA summercamp last year a troop of canoeing newbees deceided to canoe to "the island" to have lunch. The island (on a lake) is in veiw of the waterfront. We had a good boy to adult ratio. All Adults had safety afloat and safe swim (me too). I was the only kayaker and I was surprised that a few boys had such a hard time pointing in the right direction,, a 5-10 min trip was 1/2 hour easy and that was with me tyrying to coach them. Yeah we all finnally got back to the waterfront...seems like they had no problem going in the right direction...they just went backwards. spinnaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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