Singing for forgotten items

[packsaddle]

I agree wholeheartedly with Bob White on this. Upon taking the CM position, I also took on the tradition of turning the cub upside down for his bobcat award. On one pack meeting during that first year, a cub spoke to me with great concern about his discomfort and apprehension about having to do this. I terminated the practice (and the tradition) on the spot, only later learning it was considered hazing. The young boy knew this better than the adults. I wonder how many boys have quit because of this and similar practices.

 

Edited part: Powder on the hand seems innocuous. The brand thing would get attention around here, though, why not just one of those hand stamp things?

I wonder about painting a paw print on their cheek, if it is voluntary would that pass muster?

But...why isn't the award itself enough? Seems like a better tradition there and it certainly isn't hazing. Doesn't something else like being hanged or branded detract from the celebration of the actual accomplishment?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Bob White]

That sounds fine barry because you don't riske scaring or injuring someone elses child. Something that doesn't seem to occur to those who flip other peoples kids over.

 

 

[evmori]

And if singing for lost items is hazing then what is the Ordeal new OA members MUST complete? Sound like an initiation to me! And that equals hazing!

 

I have been out of Cubs for over 15 years & when I was Cubmaster we turned new Bobcats upside down! Why? Pack tradition! Never dropped one either! And never had a Bobcat or parent ever request not to be turned upside down! If we would have, we would have honored the request & pinned the badge upside down instead.

 

Oops! Forgot an important rule! If Bob never did it or heard of it or never experienced it, it doesn't exist in Scouting!

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Not at all Ed. I just think that if we as adults expect the scouts to obey rules then we should also.

 

Remember "Setting the Example" from your Wood Badge Days, and A scout is trustworthy, friendly and kind?

 

I have never asked anyone to do things my way ed, only to do it the Scouting way. I always marvel at how you have a problem with that approach.

 

 

 

[Just Asking]

I wrote the original question and it was the first time I used the forum, so I was a bit worried about responses. The singing for forgotten items has been going on for some time in our troop, but an incident which was the "last staw" for me was when a 13 year old scout forgot his scout uniform on a camping weekend which was with the troop only. The troop policy is to not take him. The SM was not there, so the Asst Scout Master didn't have it in his heart to call his mother to come get him. The SM did arrive at the campsite later that evening. The next day, in order to make a point of the scout forgetting his uniform, he made him were his (the Scout Master's) size 3X Large scout shirt for pictures. Of course, all the other scouts were laughing. After the trip when the SM asked the Asst. Scout master to send him the picture to show it around, the Asst. would not. Just wanted your thoughts on this.

[Bob White]

I think the wrong person is the scoutmaster.

[evmori]

So the OA Ordeal isn't hazing?

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, you can cut out the inane quesitons, Merlyn Leroy isnt around for this thread, I know how much you love to bait people with irrelevant questions over and over when you just want to stir things up. I beleive the Internet term is Flaming (ronic, ain't it)

 

The OA Ordeal is not hazing as those who undertake the Ordeal do it willingly and have an understanding of what it is and what will happen. They know if they complete it, they will have membership in the organizaiton and will never have to repeat the process. In a troop that sings for lost items, every day is a new adventure an every boy sings for every lost item anew.

 

Now maybe you think you are funny, in fact I do think you are a real stitch, I hope all of your troop think so, because your stock here is falling.

 

[acco40]

Ed, for a good understanding of the OA Ordeal, go through or witness again, a Brotherhood ceremony.

 

Hazing is a tough nut for some. When personal gear is left out after repeated requests to stow it (by the PL, SPL, ASPL, SAs, SM, etc.) I (the SM) have a "habit" of collecting the mug, plate, fork, or other offending item and "storing" it in a safe place. The Scout and sometimes the Scouter, would then ask where the item may be. Is that hazing? To some, I'm sure it is. Most Scouts respond well to encouragement. Some need a touch of the stick and not just carrot.

 

A good test that may help one decide if an action is hazing or not is to ask yourself if you would subject an adult to the same action? If not, it probably borderlines on hazing.

[ScoutNut]

Singing is very much hazing.

 

My son is ADHD and forgetting things is just part of who he is. All singing ever did was :

 

1)Teach him not to tell anyone if he was missing something

 

2)Resent the Scoutmaster - A LOT

 

One day when told to sing, he simply looked his SM in the eye, told him no, and walked away. There has not been any singing for lost/forgotten things in his Troop since.

 

.

 

 

[acco40]

Singing is like community service, some see it as a blessing, others a punishment.

 

On our outings, my kids roll their eyes when Dad the SM starts singing. I've got so many tunes in my head that I can find appropriate lyrics for almost any occasion. Others find singing as a punishment. My condolences. I totally understand that while I may like singing, others do not and forcing anyone to do anything they wish not to is not only hazing but cruel.

 

Community service has the same connotations. Some Scouts and Scouters see it as a ticket that needs to be punched to get their goal (rank advancement, etc.) Judge "sentence" individuals to so many hours of community service. Others, like myself, find "cheerful service even in the midst of irksome tasks" a rewarding experience, especially when doing it as a group (patrol, troop, etc.). C'est la vie.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Hunt]

To determine whether a particular action is "hazing" and should be abandoned, we first have to decide what question we will ask. Some possibilities:

1."Is the action intended to humiliate?"

2."Would a reasonable person feel humiliated?"

3."Would a sensitive person feel humiliated?"

4."Is there anybody anywhere who would feel humiliated?"

Analysis: Question 1 is not good enough, because "well-meaning" people can in fact humiliate others "all in good fun." Question 4 doesn't work, because we couldn't do anything.

In choosing between 2 and 3, I would choose 3. The Scout Law surely teaches us to be kind and courteous to the weaker and more sensitive members of our units. So if there are some boys who would be humiliated by being forced to sing for lost items, it's better not to do it. Scouting is not intended to toughen boys up, but to build their character--and that includes kindness.

As for turning Cubs upside down, I have trouble thinking of it as hazing, even under the sensitive boy test, but I can see why it might be dangerous--and I also think most of us now shy away from situations in which adults touch boys.

[study question: Is the Pinewood Derby hazing?]

[Scoutmaster Ron]

I forgot an item on a camping trip the S.M. picked it up and was returning it to me at the meeting and I told him NO, you know what I have to do for it. I sang for my item in front of the Scouts, It was all in good fun. We have had scouts in the past sing for list items (only if they wanted too) One Scout forgot items quite regulary and in support his entire patrol sang with him. We have since stopped this practice. As to the Cub Scouts flipping how wopuld you handle a scout that was overweight? Would you need two adults? wouldn't that be humilitating?

[acco40]

When I was a Bear den leader, we had some boys join up for the first time. One earned his Bobcat around NOvember of the third grade. He was about my size! Now 12, he towers over me. My older son was turned over. I know suggest den leaders stand on their heads, have the Scout walk up to them and then the den leader can pin the badge on the Scout upside down until a good deed is done!

[anarchist]

Give me a brake! Another sign that the P.C.'s have won...

Singing is fun (REMEMBER THAT WORD? USED TO BE WHAT SCOUTING WAS) and yes... some, (those who have to be PC for the organizations sake) might say hazing...

We have a similar 'tradition' and the troop has NEVER...never had something 'not' be claimed...

The reason...maybe found in the Scout Law...specifically loyal, helpful, friendly and maybe even kind...though thats a stretch for kids (right?) If one of our boys appears 'embarassed' by singing for his gear...WITHOUT FAIL some (if not all)of his partrol or even the older scouts will step up beside him and lead him through the song...it is a good thing! It builds patrols, teams, crews and troops...

For gosh sakes, these are boys who pass gas and think it is a high form of humor...AND THEY DO IT just for the fun(REMEMBER THAT WORD?of it!

A song is not hazing ....and 'embarrassment' (the PC kind)is way over rated!