A tent and a Scout

[Backpacker]

BOB,

 

WOW Let me quote you, " Not everything we do as scout leaders is covered by policy". This kind of shoots down most of your previous posts where you quote BSA regs as being the only way to do things. So why the change of heart, or is it do as I say not as I do. I think the other posters here are right, you are twisting a method to try to fit this topic and it doesn't work.

[EagleInKY]

I think it's a great idea whenever you can make it work out. Certainly, in situations such as winter camping, it makes even more sense to put three in a tent. However there are several situations where it simply won't work. That's why it can't be policy. I'll restate them for the record:

1) Summer camp - council provides two-man walled tents. Putting a 3rd boy in is impossible.

 

2) Backpacking - 3-man tents are impractical.

 

In another thread, Bob and others emphasized the need for maintaining patrol unity and make sure patrols camp together. I agree with that. But we have had situations where each patrol had an odd number. In some cases, we've allowed the two individuals to share a tent in order to solve the odd-number issue.

[Bob White]

"WOW Let me quote you, " Not everything we do as scout leaders is covered by policy". This kind of shoots down most of your previous posts where you quote BSA regs as being the only way to do things."

 

No change on my part Backpacker, just a misunderstanding of the program on your part.

 

You need to learn the difference between, policiies (regulations), procedures, and Methods.

 

The policies (regulations) of the BSA are specific sets of rules that cover 4 specific areas (Safety, Membership, Advancement, Uniforms).

 

They are administrative boundaries set by the executive board of the national council. They do three things 1) protect the safety of the youth, 2) protect the image of the BSA, 3)protect the youth from adults misusing the program.

 

Anything else you do in unit service deals with recommended procedures and program Methods. When you misuse the Patrol Method you do not violate any regulation, you simply are not scouting. When you misuse the Leadership method you do not violate a policy, you just aren't scouting. When you have boring troop meetings you don't break any rule, you just aren't scouting.

 

You can wear the uniform perfectly, and follow every policy, but if you do not follow the methods of scouting ...you aren't scouting. It is not enough to just look like a scout leader to deliver the program.

 

Now you may not agree with me, but I will bet I can get a few AMENS! to this post. And as long as there are some out there willing to follow the program then there still some scouts who will get to see the promise of scouting, that was made to them in their handbooks, kept.

[dan]

I do believe the next time I have a question, I will PM the person, that I have a question for.

 

But since I am already here

 

Scouts checking each other for ticks!!

Did anyone else get a mental picture of this!

 

 

[evmori]

Good point, Backpacker! However, Bob should be running for office cause he can spin stuff better than the Globetrotters can spin a basketball!

 

The buddy system is a very important part of Scouting but to say that means "no Scout tents alone" is a real stretch.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Backpacker]

Bob,

 

Once again you are in error, I understand program policies and methods just fine. I have attended every type of training, locally, Nationally and at Philmont. My program is rock solid in line with BSA program. My objection is what one poster stated, "you spin things the way you see them." You start with a rule or policy then twist it the way you understand it. Just because you have 5000 posts here does not make you an expert, even though you have many thinking that, and the way you interpret policy is not always correct, as we have seen here and on other threads. Bob while you have a lot of years in scouting, which I do respect, everyone else is not always wrong when they disagree with THE BOB WHITE METHOD OF SCOUTING.

[Bob White]

I never said the things you credit to me, and you know it. Ed knows also. The other posters know it as well. I don't know why you have brought this kind of baggage with you or who you posted as before, but I have asked you before to give a single piece of evidence to support the trash you spout and you never did. I invite you again.

 

I never applied a method of scouting to no boy sleeps alone.

 

I have never told people to do as I do I have only urged them to follow the BSA program.

 

I have never claimed to be an expert.

 

I have never claimed expertise based on the number of posts or lack of from lack of posting.

 

This is just a bunch of trumped up bilge, and you cannot back up one word of the falsehoods you have spouted. If you ca offer one piece of evidence to backup you accusations I welcome it.

 

I would hope the management of the board will require you to either stick to the topic or clam up. Your attacks do nothing to add to the quality of these conversations.

 

 

 

 

[Be_Prepared]

What is the solution then, other than tenting alone, to the following scenario ?

 

23 scouts attend summer camp. The camp provides two-man BSA canvas wall tents on fixed wooden platforms with cots.

[evmori]

Draw straws & send someone home!

[Adrianvs]

Bob has stated repeatedly that this is only his personal interpretation of the buddy system in the case of tenting. Of course he thinks it to be right; otherwise, it wouldn't be his interpretation. He has provided practical reasons for his opinion, but that is to be expected of anyone who defends his position. There are varying positions here as to exactly how strict or broad the buddy system should be applied, but no one should feel threatened by the mere rationale for one or another position.

[Twocubdad]

Boy, I hate to stir things up, but we have Cub Scouts who tent alone from time to time. If the boy is okay with it, I don't see a safety issue. Tents are typically so close together that any problems during the night which would wake up a tent mate will also wake up those in separate tents nearby. I don't believe sleeping next to another nine-year-old offers much protection against the type of nighttime emergencies that have been mentioned.

 

I think we enforce the buddy system differently. While "in the camp site" we don't enforce the boys being one-on-one with a buddy. Twelve Scouts sittig around the campfire together are considered to be "buddied-up." But if you leave the campsite for any reason you must take a buddy with you. What constitutes being "in the camp site" varies with the layout of each site, but generally means arond the fire ring, within the circle of tents.

[sceagle]

This one post subject sure has stirred up a lot of messages, both against solo tent camping and for solo tent camping. But now, having read all the posts, I must add my thoughts.

 

I really commend Bob for his posts and for defending his interpretations. It sounded like everyone was against him, but Bob is right in a way. And for all those of you who are 'for' solo tent camping, (consentual, not forceful) are also correct.

 

I don't really see a difference in a boy sleeping alone in his tent and a boy sleeping alone in his own room at home. It's true boys mingle and stay up late hours in a tent together & finally fall asleep. But that is not the case in all instances. However, using the buddy system does apply to Boy Scouting. Except, I believe an older Scout, 16+, who wants to sleep alone should be able to do so. Adults as young as 18 and older sleep alone in one or two man tents, wheres the buddy system in that system? In my troop, no younger Scouts sleep alone. Our two man tents are big enough for 3 smaller to middle sized scouts.

 

But all in all, Scouts with medical problems should sleep with a partner and I believe that partner should be aware of it and should know what to do incase anything during the night were to occur.

 

And lastly look...We go on camping/backpacking trips to have fun! What goes on during the day is the most important and memorable part of an activity outing. Not whether you had someone to share a tent with or not. But lets not forget safety first. Two scouts should share a tent together, but if it's an odd # and an older Scout wishes to sleep alone, let him be.

 

Michael

[anarchist]

Hi guys,

 

We, as leaders chose to protect our boys, ourselves, our troop, and our CO by using 'no boy sleeps alone' concept...except the SPL can if he desires...if the numbers work...

The troop uses eureka timberline 2XT's and Timberline 4XT's (with a few older 2's and 4's thrown in). three boys fit in the 4XT's with no problem and 4 new scouts (small guys usually) can fit at need...again with no problem.

 

Sometimes this means that patrol members may share a tent with another patrol but it is less of a problem than a boy having problems at night (med induced, weather related or just plain old sick) or getting up (alone) and heading the wrong direction to the latrine at 3:30 in the morning...you just better your odds. Though..I have stumbled over a mess kit left in the dark at 3:00AM, making enough noise to wake the dead, and had no one "hear" me... weigh the risks????

anarchist

 

And for the back packing contingent...remember the days when each of two scouts carried a canvas shelter half and one break-a-part 'G.I.' pole???...even the tent body of the Timberline 4 does not weigh that much. With some planned packing, the 4 man can go on hikes if needed with little more difficulty than a two-man.

[Troop185]

Last Memorial Weekend, our Troop was on a camping trip to the Bruce Peninsula in Ontario. I was with the early group that got to the campsite in the afternoon and set up the tents. We went to bed at about 10:00. The late group arrived after midnight. It got below freezing all three nights we were there.

 

"David" a 12 yrs. old scout, with a great deal of camping experiences, arrived with the late group and his two older brothers, and his dad (our Troop's Quartermaster). Somehow, David ended up in a tent by himself. When I got up the next morning, I was susprise to see that David was already up. Now David is not the type to complain, but he did meation that he was cold during the night. I assumed it was because he was in a tent by himself, and told him we would have him sleep with some other scouts that night. (Like anarchist's Troop, we often have three or four scouts in a Eureka, Timberline - 4, especially when it is cold.)

 

After supper, I went over with David to his tent to help him move his gear. David had no sleeping bag! He had forgotten to pack it, and had been too embarrassed to said anything. His dad could not believe it, and of course, all the stores were closed for the day by this time (we had been next to some earlier in the day). His dad ended up borrowing three wool blankets from the boat company that has the Ferry to Manitoulin Island. David slept warm the rest of the weekend. We are going to have him give a speech to all the new scouts next Spring on "what to do if you forget your sleeping bag!"

 

 

[cliffgolden]

>>>>>dan posted>>>

A poster (one that I usually agree with) posted that you should never have a scout tent by himself. I do not agree with this statement. >>>>>>>>

 

I agree with you Dan.

 

We usually have 2 boys to a tent. If we have an odd number we will sometimes have 3 in a tent. If we have a boy who wants a tent by himself, that's usually not a problem either.

 

I normally always sleep in a tent alone.

 

Sound carries very well between tents (sometimes too well). I see no safety issue, unless a boy has a medical condition or if there is extreme weather conditions.

 

There is certainly no BSA rule forbidding it.

 

Either way, it's up to each troop. It something that is more about preference than right or wrong.

 

If it's not a health or safety issue, I usually allow the boys to make those tenting decisions.

 

If a boy tents alone, it always been by his choice.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois