Need Clarification on Webelos Overnight Camping

[FScouter]

Ed (or anyone else) that sleeps with a boy other than his or her own son runs a VERY BIG risk. Ed, its inconceivable why you would advocate such a practice, particularly when the Guide to Safe Scouting specifically forbids it. Are you just trying to be argumentative??

[Bob White]

Sure there is! The "guardian for the camping trip" is the adult responsible for the Cub in his/her charge.

 

No such term exists in scouting.

 

Having just done a slew of New Leader Essential and Youth Protection courses I can assure you that in the YP video and in the video in the Safety section of NLE the say that a scout can only be in a tent with his parent or legal guardian. Otherwise, they say, the youth and adults must be in separate tents.

 

For adults in a cabin by the way, females are required to be in a separate facility, males must be separated by a privacy wall blocking them from view of the youth and vice-versa. Plus at least two of the adults in the cabin must have YP training, a condition not required in cub family camp since the adult should never be in a tent with a scout that is not his son or LEGAL guardian.

 

It really does help to go to training.

 

 

[kenk]

I asked at last night's district roundtable meeting. They were quick and clear to specify "Legal" guardian. They said notes from parents were not acceptable with regard to an adult sleeping in the same tent as youth.

 

After that I noticed that regarding Webelos adult supervision, the GTSS refers to "parent approved adult". It seems to me they are being careful to distinguish between a guarian (legal guardian) and a parent approved adult.

 

I asked about the situation when you have a very large tent (teepee) and have several unrelated adult leaders and youth sleeping in the same large tent. He said to follow the rules for cabin accomidations. I can't find anything like that in the GTSS though.

[evmori]

So little Billie want to go on the Pack campout & his mom & dad can't go so Grandpa Charlie says he will take the lad! Then little Billie finds out he can't sleep in the same tent with Grandpa Charlie and has to sleep all alone in his own tent. Little Billie is all upset & cries himself to sleep & decides to quit Cubs because of this!

 

To me, legal guardian is the adult responsible for the youth in his/her charge. If it happens to be Grandpa Charlie for this camping trip, so be it! As long as mom and dad are OK with Uncle Charlie & little Billie sleeping in the same tent, so am I.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

No, actually if you take the youth protection and basic training offered to all adult memebers it tells you to put youth together in a tent, and the male adults together in another tent.

 

This really insn't rocket science.

 

You never tent a scout by himself, Remember the "Buddy System"?

 

Good luck trying to follow the YP regs for dormitory (cabin) camping in a tent. It requires that there be at least two adults (both male), both must have YP training (not something a cub parent is necessarily going to have) and a privacy wall that blocks the view of the adults from the youth and the youth from the adults. I have seen few tents except for large military issue that have the ability to do that.

 

The solution is simple. Make sure every family understand what the rules are. If the cub expects to be in a tent with an adult it HAS to be a parent or legal guardian.

 

A side note to commissioners. Your "commission" is to help uphold the policies and programs of the BSA. You need to not only know what they are but you need to accept them. It's part of being Trustworthy and Loyal.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

No, actually if you take the youth protection and basic training offered to all adult memebers it tells you to put youth together in a tent, and the male adults together in another tent. This really insn't rocket science. You never tent a scout by himself, Remember the "Buddy System"?

 

And if the other Cubs want to tent with their parent or guardian what do you do then? Yeah I remember the Buddy System. Duh! Use it all the time!

 

And it seems you are waffling, Bob. Earlier in this thread you agreed with twocubdad & now it seems you are changing your position?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I do agree with what Twocubdadwrote

 

"When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his parent or guardian." (G2SS, p 7, #7). So no, each father and son would need their own tent or the two boys could share one tent and the dads another."

 

Which is exactly what the YP and adult basic training teaches.

 

"And if the other Cubs want to tent with their parent or guardian what do you do then?"

 

You let them. You just don't allow an adult in the tent that isn't the parent or legal guardian.

 

"Yeah I remember the Buddy System. Duh! Use it all the time!"

 

REALLY? Becasue here is what you wrote...

" Then little Billie finds out he can't sleep in the same tent with Grandpa Charlie and has to sleep all alone in his own tent"

 

If you had followed the adult training, if you had followed youth protection, if you had BALOO training and were the required leader of the cub family camping event, you would have explained to the families in advance what the policies covering camping were. So the only thing that would have caused grandpa to show up thinking he was going to tent with Billie would be if the family didn't pay attention, and that is no ones fault but the family's. The pack and the BSA are not going to alter the Youth Protection policies for the families error.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

It is clear to me that the Guide requires that a scout can only tent with other scouts, OR with a parent or legal guardian. I don't think the rule is quite so crystal clear on whether another adult can ALSO be in the tent. If that's the prevailing interpretation, so be it. I guess I don't understand the reason for it if the additional adult is Grandpa, for example, except perhaps that exceptions make the rule too complicated.

[evmori]

Bob,

You need to go back & re-read what you agreed with! Also, the G2SS says "guardian" not "legal guardian". There is a difference.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I quoted in my last post what I agreed with.

 

If you take the training you will know that the BSA says LEGAL GUARDIAN. While some people may think there is an upper case G guardian and a lower case g guardian in the policies of the BSA they are confused. The BSA makes that very clear in their training that the policy is LEGAL guardian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

twocubdad's post:

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged... Den Leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips." (Guide to Safe Scouting, page 21, 4th bullet). Page 22, under Pack Overnighters says "In most cases each youth memberwill be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responisble to a specific adult." I belive the common understand of that is that a Scout can camp with another adult (small G guardian) who is directly responsible. I can't find the reference right now, but I my understanding is that an adult can be responsible for only one boy other that his/her own children and that the leader of the group cannot take responsibility for any addition youth. "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his parent or guardian." (G2SS, p 7, #7). So no, each father and son would need their own tent or the two boys could share one tent and the dads another.

Bob White's very next post:

Twocubdad is right on the money.

Nowhere do the words "legal guardian" appear in the G2SS regarding this.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

Everyone here certainly must agree that the purpose of the sleeping rules is to minimize the opportunities for child sexual abuse. Sure, that may pose some inconveniences on parents and adult leaders. So what? Is our inconvenience more important than avoiding sex abuse on a child?

 

I would be highly suspicious of any adult that tried to dance around the rules to gain access to a boy in a tent that is not his son.

[evmori]

FScouter,

Agree 100%

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I just went back and read with care the relevant sections of the Guide (Youth Protection and Camping). The use of the word "guardian" in several places, always in the form "parent or guardian" supports, in my view, that BSA is talking about a legal guardian, not a person temporarily authorized by the parent. It would be better if BSA would define the term in the guide--this should be crystal clear to all adults, whether they've had training or not. It should also be made crystal clear because it won't be obvious to many people--i.e., that a boy can't tent with his uncle or Grandpa, even if the parents approve, or that two boys and their dads can't share a big tent. I'd say this very discussion and another elsewhere on the site demonstrate that it's not clear enough.

 

I continue to think the verbiage that no youth may sleep in the tent "of" an adult other than his own parent or guardian is too vague. It should say that the youth may not share a tent "with" an adult other than the parent or guardian if they want to make it clear that the boy can't tent with both Dad and Grandpa.

 

One oddity--the child abuse prevention video should only be showed to a boy accompanied by a parent or "other adult family member." So here, I guess Grandpa is OK, but even the legal guardian is out. My point is that the Guide, like some other BSA documents, is not as precise when laying down rules as one would like.

[Bob White]

You don't see legal guardianship as qualifying as a family member?(This message has been edited by Bob White)