Need Clarification on Webelos Overnight Camping

[Bob White]

Fotoscout's sscenario would not be allowed in any council I know of. An adult cannot be in a tent with a youth for whom they are not the parent or guardian.

 

So for kenk's question:

"Can the two boys and their adult/guardian sleep in the same tent? Does that violate the two-deep leadership?"

 

Unless something has changed in the YP policies, No they can't, yes it does.

 

BW

 

[Bob White]

After re-reading kenk's post I would like to retract my previous post and give a somewhat different answer.

 

Kenk I think you misunderstand the terms being used. When the BSA says "guardian" in this case they are not refering to the supervising adult but to a legally confirmed guardian. As in a person who by a legal decision or law, is given responsibility for a minor that they are not the birth parent of.

 

A webelos may camp without a parent or guardian if they under the direct supervision or another adult other than the den leader. That "suoervising authority" however cannot share a tent with that scout since he or she is not the parent or guardian of the boy.

 

So the answer is still No, the three cannot tent together.

 

Two deep leadersip is a separate issue and a separate policy. Two deep leadership says that on trips and outings (with one exception)units must have Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older.

 

Do not confuse sleeping arrangements with two deep leadership requirements. They are unrelated.

 

BW

[FScouter]

Have to agree with BW - two deep leadership isn't related to sleeping arrangements.

I've never heard of the 1:1 rule. What is that?

[nldscout]

Like I started to say before it got cutoff. Our council still enforces the 1 to 1 parent to cub, including Webelos when camping.

[kenk]

I like BW's interpretation, and agree 100%. I too would not want to allow a scout to sleep in the same tent with an adult who is not a parent or a LEGAL guadian. I wish the GTSS would add the term "legal" in their wording, or provide a better definition of the term guardian.

 

I also agree that the tent sharing and two-deep leadership as completely separate issues. That was one of the points I so poorly tried to make.

 

I referred to the "1:1 rule" -- It appears some councils/districts have a rule that during Webelos camping, each adult shall be responsible for only one scout. This is certainly my own preferred arrangement, but I can see where it would be difficult with a one-parent--multi-child family.

[fotoscout]

"The whistle blows..Attention on Deck, Now hear this!!For the purpose of sleeping accommodations, we have suspended all Youth Protection policies!! They will go back into effect at 0800 tomorrow after Colors. Thank you for your attention return to your work stations."

In Scouting today the YP policy sits atop everything we do. It is a thread that runs though every facet of this program.....From when you rise up, to when you lie down, and, to when you slumber though the night. You cannot separate the YP policies of BSA from any other policy. It is ever present. Simply because it is published in a separate document, doesnt mean that you can simple withdraw it because it seems to make little sense in that situation. Nor can you cubbie hole the language and make the overtly simplistic interpretation that it only applies to the leaders. The policy is intended to protect everyone, even unregistered parents that accompany us on trips.

Fotoscout's sscenario would not be allowed in any council I know of. An adult cannot be in a tent with a youth for whom they are not the parent or guardian. Not without another adult, who is that Scout's parent. Why, in part because of our YP policies. And I know of no Council where this has been outright rejected.

[EagleInKY]

Sorry Foto, but you're incorrect. You're trying to use two parts of the same set of policies against each other. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian.

 

I don't see how it can be much clearer. It has nothing to do with two-deep leadership. It's to prevent the awkward situation as you described in your earlier post. I know that our council interprets it as Bob and others here have stated.

[WoodenNickel]

I did the 12-hour OWL training bit this past Saturday, and the message I received was that Cubs needed their parent/legal guardian present for overnights with Troops. Also, some events have specific age limitations, e.g., you must be age 11 to do cave campouts in our council.

[Hunt]

I do think there is some ambiguity in the term "tent of an adult other than..." Does this mean that the parent or guardian must be in the tent, or that only the parent or guardian is in the tent? What if the other adult is the Scout's grandfather or 19-year-old brother? I can certainly imagine a situation in which two fathers and two sons might want to share a large tent. Should this be prohibited?

[FScouter]

Is the grandfather the parent? Is the brother the parent? Is another kid's father the parent? Boys may not sleep with any adult except their own parent.

[evmori]

Is the grandfather the parent? Is the brother the parent? Is another kid's father the parent? Boys may not sleep with any adult except their own parent.

 

If the grandfather or 19 year old brother is the kid's guardian for the camping trip then either can sleep in the same tent with the kid.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutingagain]

 

The issue of large family style tents for Webelos camping was brought up once before, (by me via a possible suggestion) and was rather abruptly dismissed by another poster as a violation of the Webelos tenting rules. i.e. No scout can sleep in a tent with an adult other than a parent or guardian.

 

My question is this. How is a large family style tent with more than one adult and more than one scout different from cabin style camping where all parties sleep on bunks in the same small room, or the scenario on many ship board sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same cabin, or museum sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same area.

 

This situation keeps comming up because like it or not, not all scouts have a parent or guardian available to camp with and while they may be assigned to another adult to supervise, this means the scout without a parent or guardian present only has the option to sleep with another scout. In some cases this may mean a young scout may not be comfortable at age 10 or 11 participating in a campout sleeping only with another young scout, when everyone else gets to tent with their parent or guardian. The family style tent seems to me to be reasonable accomodation to this situation, and poses no additional threat to the scouts than do the sleeping arrangements described above, except is does seem to be counter to the wording used in the Webelos Camping requirements.

 

SA

 

 

[FScouter]

Most kids are raised by their parents. Those that have no parents are raised by a guardian. Those are the only adults kids are permitted to sleep with. There is no such thing as a "guardian for the camping trip".

[EagleInKY]

SA -

 

"How is a large family style tent with more than one adult and more than one scout different from cabin style camping where all parties sleep on bunks in the same small room, or the scenario on many ship board sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same cabin, or museum sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same area."

 

I cannot recall the publication, but my understanding is that BSA encourages adults to sleep in a different room, or with some form of curtain or barrier, whenever possible. While we recognize there are times where this simply is not an option, we should always try to provide private accommodations for the youth.

 

"..the scout without a parent or guardian present only has the option to sleep with another scout."

 

Yes, you are correct. That is why we encourage scouts to begin sleeping with other scouts during Webelos. Even if parents come, we encourage the boys to bunk together in tents. Typicaly, dad A and dad B shares one of the tents, while son A and son B share the other's tent. This gets them used to sleeping with other youth, and it prevents you from having the problem of what to do with the parent-less child.

 

I've found that it is usually the adults that resist this, not the youth. The boys may initially be wary of sleeping with another scout, but they end up having much more fun. We adults need to learn to let go a little more.

[evmori]

Most kids are raised by their parents. Those that have no parents are raised by a guardian. Those are the only adults kids are permitted to sleep with. There is no such thing as a "guardian for the camping trip".

 

Sure there is! The "guardian for the camping trip" is the adult responsible for the Cub in his/her charge.

 

Good question about the big family tents. The only difference from a cabin I can see the type of material each is made from. Additionally, the G2SS specifically addresses tent camping on this subject.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10