Patrol Camping

[mdutch]

I was informed by my Scoutmaster that we are no longer allowed to have patrol campouts without adult supervision. Does anyone know if this is a National decision, or one made by my council?

 

Thanks,

Eric

Twin Rivers Council

[OldGreyEagle]

I think its a decision made by your scoutmaster, and he is not correct

[mdutch]

He said that he was told this by the council, but wasn't sure who made the decision

[FScouter]

From the Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 4, The Boy-Led Patrol:

"... patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules: the Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity, the patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function. A patrol activity without adult supervision should be allowed only when it has been thoroughly planned and the Scoutmaster is satisfied that the activity is well within the patrol members' levels of training and responsibility."

 

[mdutch]

Are councils allowed to decide to not allow patrols to do this?

[LPC_Thumper]

When I was a Scout some of the best campouts we went on were Patrol Campouts. Now when I started reading this thread, I thought "That's too bad that we can't do this anymore..." Then FScouter actually quoted the manual (what a novel idea by the way). Can the Council say you can't go? Only if the DON'T read their manuals. Good luck with this, they are FUN, just get a copy of the manual and ask your SM about it...

[flowerchild]

I have a question about patrol campouts without adult supervision: Do the patrols still need to file a tour permit?

 

Also, is there a BSA form used as a checklist for planning a patrol campout? We have put together one for our patrols to use but since BSA has so many forms, I thought there might be one.

 

[9muckraker7]

Maybe the resident council camp disallows non-adult supervised patrol camping for some reason (liability purposes, perhaps). This doesn't mean that the boys still cannot camp in a local county or state forest or park or campground. The way I see it, the council does not have jurisdiction over those state-owned areas, and therefore should not have much say in allowing or disallowing the boys to camp there.

Maybe the state or county regulations would also disallow this, but I think that's highly unlikely.

 

If the council did in fact completely disallow individual non-adult-supervised patrol camping, then there would most definitely be some sort of loophole in "overiding" this decision. Maybe the patrol members of a certain patrol can go camping, just not as a patrol, but rather as a group of friends having a fun camping trip... TECHNICALLY, the presence of a "patrol" would not be there IF the boys did not bring their boy scout uniforms or their patrol flag...

[LPC_Thumper]

Not to be rude... I'm of the opinion that trying to skirt the issue of not being a patrol but rather a group of friends is avoiding the point.

 

I realize I'm thumping manuals to say "Hold on, if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." I think it would be much better to get these young men talking to their unit commissioner, or their Scoutmaster, and getting some real advice as to why they can't do this, even if it means the patrol has to go sleep in someones backyard while they get their answers.

[mdutch]

Thanks for all your replies

 

When asked, my scoutmaster tells us it is a council desision, and he has no control over it. Any ideas who, at the council level, would be the right person to talk to?

 

Eric

Twin Rivers Council

[LPC_Thumper]

On paper, in theroy, your Unit Commissioner should represent the District/Council for you. (I started this post that way, because you asked the question)

 

If this person is stopping around, or if you have an easy way to contact this person just tell them you don't want to rock the boat, but you saw on a website that people were talking about how much fun scouts have going on patrol campouts. And you were just noticing that your leaders don't do this, and you were wondering why not... I find if you just play "dumb" with a lot of this, you can get all sorts of things.

 

Now if you are reading this and saying "What the heck is a UC?"A phone call to your District Office, and just ask them should do the trick. Many times office folks know most of the answers and are happy to answer without knowing what unit you are from...

 

I'm sure others will also have good ideas.

 

Good Luck!!

[9muckraker7]

"Any ideas who, at the council level, would be the right person to talk to?"

 

Have you been to your council's website? That should be of some use in finding contact information.

http://www.twinriverscouncilbsa.org/trc-phone.html

 

 

If in doubt, contact your Scout Executive about this issue.

[442jeremy]

i am a new patrol leader and just last month i held a one night patrol campout and had to have 2 adult leaders attend because that is what the counsil said. my leader said that if it were up to him, he would not require any adult leaders. it is just more fun without the "no-fun-stay-in-line leaders" boy scouts is about hanging out with friends around the campfire. we don't need leader supervision for that.

[Kahuna]

Sounds like the Scoutmaster and/or the Council is wrong on this one. The simple answer is to call your DE and ask the question. If the DE says no patrol camping, ask what the authority is that overrides the info in the handbook. You can't very well get a tour permit for a patrol campout without adults, because the form requires stating who the adults are and requires one be trained, etc, etc. I would take the position that, if the activity is Scoutmaster approved, that satisfies the tour permit requirement.

 

Sadly, this is the kind of gotcha that results from all our G2SS CYA stuff.

[Kudu]

> Also, is there a BSA form used as a checklist for planning a patrol

> campout? We have put together one for our patrols to use but since

> BSA has so many forms, I thought there might be one.

 

What you are looking for is training, rather than a form.

 

Everyone has perfectly logical reasons as to why Patrols no longer hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts, but I suspect that the real reason is that (since the Post-Hillcourt, 1972 emergence of "Leadership Development" as a separate "method" of Scouting) we no longer train Patrol Leaders how to do these things: You get what you train for.

 

If you are using the Patrol Method, then you know that every Troop campout is really a bunch of simultaneous Patrol Campouts. Try separating the Patrol sites farther away from each other so that they are truly independent.

 

Quartermasters are the most important factor. Our Troop uses multiple "Troop Quartermasters," one in each Patrol, so that each Patrol's Quartermaster is responsible for his own Patrol and earns leadership credit towards advancement.

 

When a single Patrol goes car-camping (with two adults) there is no difference from a Troop Campout. The adults camp at a discreet distance from the Patrol's campsite.

 

When our "Redskins" Patrol went camping without adults, they would backpack from their houses to a wooded area a mile away. This eliminated the need for automobiles and adults. They packed light, and relied on spearing rabbits and squirrels to extend their Campbell's Pork & Beans, the Patrol's favorite food. The Patrol utilized the Australian Aborigines' method of using a piece of wood as an extension of their arms to increase the force of their hunting spears, a technique that the twelve year-old Patrol Leader found in Baden-Powell's "Scouting of Boys." They also baked their eggs by pricking a small hole in the small end, rolling them into a ball of mud and placing them in the coals of their campfire for a couple of minutes, a technique that they learned from a biography of Dan Beard. See Scouter Magazine, Issue #5 (Item #9984):

 

http://www.scouter.com/catalog/backissues/default.asp

 

If your Junior Leaders have already memorized the Troop Junior Leader Training (JLT) video tape to the point that they chant along with the sound track, then consider occasionally running a Patrol Leader Training (PLT)course instead. "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" was written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, and it is a PLT course for teaching Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol, as opposed to JLT which teaches abstract managerial skills.

 

This course is organized in the form of a "Green Bar Patrol" with the Scoutmaster as Patrol Leader, the SPL as Assistant Patrol Leader, and the remaining Junior Leaders as Patrol members. The Green Bar Patrol holds a Patrol Meeting every month for six months. The training covers everything from actually making a Patrol flag, to organizing Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. The course culminates in a Patrol campout.

 

I have updated the reading assignments and references to reflect the page numbers of the current BSA Scoutmaster and Patrol Leader handbooks. See The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar

 

I have also scanned the old Gilwell Patrol Leader Training course, if anyone wants to use it Email me and I will clean up the optical scanning for you first, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell