I am angry

[fotoscout]

Dan,

 

One Word....WRONG.

 

Den camping has no similarities to Patrol Camping. it should not and would not. You seem to have missed the focus of the this thread.

 

foto

[dan]

fotoscout

Thanks for the laugh the first thing in the AM!

Can a opinion re WRONG? Apparently if it is different than yours. Is my vote WRONG also?

I think you need to reread my post. I did not say it was or should be like patrol camping, I stated that is what some leaders would turn it in to.

How can you state that den camping IS NOT like patrol camping, there is no thing as den camping today within the BSA? you where WRONG.

 

Now what is the Law of the PACK. (notice it does not say Den)?

 

The Cub Scout follows Akela. The Cub Scout helps the pack go. The pack helps the Cub Scout grow. The Cub Scout gives goodwill.

 

evmori

more rules? I never expected for you to say they more rules would be okay. I thought that you thought that there where to many rules already. I think there are to many rule already, but I understand why they are there.

 

fotoscout

I am leading at this point I have 3 WRONGS to your 1.

[fotoscout]

Hi Dan,

 

Im glad to have helped you wake up this morning!

 

I dont think that Den camping could ever evolve into anything resembling patrol camping. The kids simply dont have the ability yet to do that. You could never get a bunch of CSs to setup their own tents, cook their own meal and do their own cleanup, all on their own. Webelos might move in that direction but CS wont. And in essence that concept is a piece of what Baloo attempts to teach. CSs go camping to have fun!

 

You are correct, there is no Den camping. Thats what were talking about here.

 

Dan, sometimes this is just like RT, a constant string of happy banter.

 

[evmori]

dan,

Don't know why you're surprised! I follow the rules. I might not agree with all of them but I follow them. And the ones I think should be changed, I lobby to change.

 

And there wouldn't need to be a list of rules for each rank. A set of "Den Camping" rules would work.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

evmori

You said

Sure you would need rules for each rank.

Now you said one set of rules would work.

Do you think the same rules could apply for Webelos and Tigers?

 

I thought you said at one time that there are to many rules within the BSA, but I could be mixing up posters.

I never said you did not follow the rules either, just for clarification.

 

 

fotoscout

Yep, just like roundtable where everyone is right, yet if you pull out a reference most of the experts just shrug it off to it just a book or a suggestion.

[evmori]

dan,

Yep your correct! Dummy me! Well what I meant was you would need a set of rules for Tiger through Bear & keep the current set of rules for Webelos.

 

I can't remember if I said the BSA has too many rules. I might have. I do think there are too many training courses! I think some could be combined.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

OK before someone informs me that I have the I.Q. of a gnat and that I can't organize a one car funeral. I have been there, did that and got a ton of T-shirts. I have organized Scouting events for every age group including Cub Scouts.

I do have to admit that there are a few changes in the Cub Scout program that I may not be up to speed on but I have been involved in Cub Scouting and Cub Scout Leader Training for a number of years. Along with my Scout Wood Badge I was a participant on one of the last Cub Scout Wood Badges offered.

Now that we have that out of the way.

Let's take a look at some of the basics.

The Methods Of Boy Scouting:

Ideals:

The ideals are spelled out in the Scout Oath,the Scout Law, the Scout motto and the Scout Slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them he has some control over what and who he becomes.

Patrols:

The Patrol method gives Boy Scouts an experience in group living and participating citizenship. It places responsibility on young shoulders and teaches boys how to accept it. The Patrol method allows Scouts to interact in small groups where members can easily relate to each other. These small groups determine Troop activities through elected representatives.

Outdoors:

Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoor setting that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with one and other. It is in the outdoors that the skills and activities practiced at the Troop meetings come alive with purpose.

Advancement:

Boy Scouting provides Scouts with a series of surmountable obstacles and steps to overcoming them through the advancement method. The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each challenge. The Boy Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps build and gain self confidence. The steps in the advancement system help the Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others.

Associations With Adults:

Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop.In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys and encourage them,and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives.

Personal Growth:

As boys plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The good turn plays a major part in personal growth, as does the religious awards program is also a large factor in personal growth. Frequent personal conferences with the Scoutmaster can help each Scout to determine his growth toward Scouting's aims.

Leadership Development:

The program encourages boys to learn and practice leadership skills. Each boy has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership. Understanding the concepts of leadership help a boy understand the leadership role of others and guides him toward citizenship.

Uniform:

The uniform creates a positive image and shows a commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting.

Cub Scouts are not little Boy Scouts in Blue uniforms. They have their own set of methods.

Methods Of Cub Scouting:

The Ideals:

Much the same as the Boy Scout. However we now have a different Law and a promise. As has been pointed out the Law is the Law of the Pack.

The Den:

Unlike the Patrol method which helps foster leadership the Den is more about belonging to a group and learning in the group.

Advancement:

Unlike the Boy Scout who plans his own advancement. In Cub Scouting it is used to help family understanding as Cub Scouts and family members work together toward the Cub Scouts advancement.

Family Involvement:

Family involvement is an essential part of Cub Scouting.

Activities:

These include Songs, skits, games, outings and events where the boys learn new skills and have fun.

Home and Neighborhood Centered:

many of the activities can be done at home and the program by design is presented in the area that the Cub Scout knows and feels comfortable in.

Uniform:

The Cub Scout uniform still shows membership and does help build loyalty and self respect along with pride.

Please note that the Outdoors is not a method of Cub Scouting. Yes outdoor activities are encouraged and promoted and learning can and does take place in the outdoors. These activities are to be held with family members and in the local area.

Den Leaders are a vital part of the program but they are not Scoutmasters. Cub Scouts are still busy doing things with the family.

So I would vote NO to Den camping.

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Its Me]

 

Eamonn, thanks for your vote.

 

By the way, the car with the widow follows the Hearst.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Please Don't Thank Me.

Thank The BSA And The Guide To Safe Scouting.

You Can Read It on Line.

If You Care Anything About The Scouts In Your Den You Will Follow it.

Eamonn

[Eamonn]

By the way that would make it a two car funeral.

Eamonn

[Blaze66]

Ok I read through about 3 of the 6 pages of replys and got tired of reading the same thing over and over so I decided to put my two cents in. The main reason that BSA policy doesn't allow Tiger, Wolf and Bear dens to do camping as a den is in my opinion the same reason it doesn't let 12 and 13 yr old Boy Scouts do High Adventure. It's not because they can't mentally or physically do it, it's because they want to keep the Boys in scouting by giving them something to look foward too as they get older and grow in scouting. Personally I don't like it because we have lost alot of Cub Scouts in the last couple of years because Tiger, Wolf and Bear dens are not suppose to camp as dens. We are a small pack less than 25 boys, in a very small community that has to compete with very popular sports programs and church sponsored boy programs such as Royal Rangers and Royal Ambasadors. In the last couple of years the majority of boys that have come into the Pack joined because they and their fathers wanted to get out and go camping. They came into scouts with a presumption that Scouts was all about camping. Our Pack only camps about three times a year, Spring Camporee, Fall Camporee and maybe one Pack Family Camp a year. Webelos get two more opritunities to camp other than these three. We would love to plan more camping but it is just not feasable because you don't get 100% participation from the Pack either from boys, leaders or parents. We have a couple of dens that every boy in the den will be there for a campout then we have other dens where no one comes. The den leaders in the dens that want to camp have on several occasions wanted to do just den camping but we have put a stop to it trying to adhere to the BSA policy. Last year alone we had one leader and three families leave the pack because of this policy. They went over to a church based group that does allow more liberal camping of younger boys and camps more frequently than our pack does. Now I know your gona say, just plan more pack family camping. But that's not really feasable in our pack. We only have two Baloo Trained people and those two happen to be me and my wife the Cub Master. None of the other leaders in the pack have ever taken the Baloo training because either they weren't interested or they didn't have the time. We did have three trained but the leader that left because we wouldn't let him do den camping was the other trained person. There is no real point to all this or any real answers. But I do want to ask this to the forum. Does anyone else see a trend in their pack of boys who do not cross over to the Troop or cross over and then drop out after a couple of months? We are seeing this trend over the last 3 or 4 years in our Pack and Troop. Majority of the ones that do drop out either do it because they get to the troop and find out they really don't like camping, or they get into that Middle School age and get overly involved in sports or other school activities and drop Scouts because they are too busy.

[NWScouter]

. same reason it doesn't let 12 and 13 yr old Boy Scouts do High Adventure. The G2SS does not differentiate between a 10 yr old new Scout and a 17 yr old Scout, does and dont are the same for each. BSA does not ban high adventure for any age in Boy Scout. Individual troops may make decisions on who goes on the high adventure activities. When I was a scoutmaster it more ability, desire and maturity that determined who would go on high adventure weeklong treks. My son did his first one when he was twelve. He ended up doing about 8 high country treks in the Cascades, Olympics, Rockies, and Yosemite before he turned 18. He is an Eagle, nine-year camp staffer, two of which as program director. At 28 he climbs mountains and has been four years on the council property committee. That troop does every couple of years a climb of Mt. St. Helens and still goes for weeklong treks every summer.

We found that early participation in high adventure outing is indicator of how long they stay in the Troop, they stay in and active so they can go.

We may be lucky out here, I can walk out at lunch and see Mt Baker, Mt Rainer and the rest of the Cascades to the north, east and south and to the west the Olympics and Im not 100 feet above sea level and mile away from the salt water. If you dont start the young scouts on high adventure out here you just dont keep them in.

O by the way there are around 3 million people within 50 miles of where I am sitting.

 

[Blaze66]

There might not be anything in national policy that says a 10 yr old cant do the same things that a 17 yr old does, but All the camps in our state that we have been too for summer camp sure do say you have to be 14 or over to participate in high adventure programs. Thats also been the reason that DE's have told me that scouts cant be in Venture crews till after 14, which I see other reasons for that not the physical aspects but the mental aspects of putting scouts under 14 participating with high school and beyond age kids all together.

[EagleInKY]

NWS - Actually, the G2SS does differentiate between a 10 year old and a 17 year old scout. In the age appropriate guidelines, it has a column for "Boy Scouts" and another column for "Older Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts and Venturing". So, yes, the G2SS does agree that some things are more appropriate for older scouts (Mountaineering, caving and COPE to name a few).

[Bob White]

Do not confuse tools and terminology. NW scouter is correct. The Guide to safe scouting does not differentiate between a 12 yr old and a 17 year old.

 

The age guideline for activities is just that a guide line. Although it does reflect some restrictions found in the G2SS and in other Leader manuals it is not in and of it self a policy or rule book it is a suggested guideline.

 

Except when the host of the activity has a rule in place, or the activity has specific restrictions listed in the G2SS, all activities fall under the guidelines of the Sweet 16 of Safety. A Boy Scout who is properly trained, physically capable, has the proper equipment, and the proper supervision can do any activity regardless of age.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)