I am angry

[fotoscout]

Wow, Unbelievable!!!

 

No Bob, I wasnt baiting. But being the New Yorker that I am, I have to wonder about some of the details. 14 Packs in a rural community of 24,000, and 100 new scouts from that same community. 14 Dens with 2 deep leadership, and 14 Committee members, 28 fully trained, uniformed Leaders in one Pack. I would guess that there are districts with fewer.

 

Ok, lets get to the heart of it. What other activities were available to these kids? Was there a YP problem with the football program (or some other program) that drove the parents away from football, did a local church decree that all boys between 6-10 would become Scouts. Does the community offer Soccer, Roller Hockey, Ice Hockey, Baseball, Karate, Lacrosse, Wrestling, Competitive Swimming, Basketball, Fencing, Dance, Music, Art, and all the others that Ive left out? Did some local political figure suggest that the children of county employees become Scouts?

 

My other question was, What is the pack like today? Is it still as strong and vibrant as it was 4 years ago?

 

This isnt about breaking the rules; its about helping someone do what he sees as good for his program, and making the rules work for him. What worked for you, will not necessarily work for someone else. Read TwoCubs post above this one, he says it very well! Actually, this was about the foolishness of the rule and no ones ability to definitively offer a reason for it.

 

[evmori]

With all this banter we still have no answer as to why dens can't go camping but packs can. Bob White won't see this since he has banished me so I don't expect an answer from him. Man O Steele -if you are lurking would you be able to shed some light on this?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

It was in fact in the Twin Rivers Council of New York. About 25 miles North of Albany. There was a very popular Little League program, other youth extra-curricular activities available included lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, music, dance, art, fly fishing, hunting, hiking, and any number of other things found in most communities now days.

 

Last I heard the Pack was still doing great.

 

Why do so many people want to make having a real scout program sound like a Utopian situation? When you can't do it you say it can't be done and when somebody does it you thing its a fluke.

 

The program works, IF you use it. I am constantly amazed by the amount of energy expended by some posters on this board to create excuses for not following the program, and then at the same time saying that the problem needs to be fixed.

 

The program is awesome, fix yourself. Get trained, read the resources, share leadership with others, follow the program structure, deliver the scouting program that has been developed. Look at leaders like Eamonn, and OGE, They do just fine and follow the program without whining, or breaking rules. They learned it, practiced it, and put in use.

[Eagledad]

Great Oklahoma Day all.

 

>>I would tell him den campouts are against BSA policy, but let's see what we can do to make the outing happen and stay within the policy.

[Laurie]

With all due respect, Its Me, what I learned this past year in BALOO and other training actually does jive with an awful lot of what Proud Eagle posted. My sources of information outside of the actual training time were the books that Bob refers to. I am the only BALOO trained leader, and for awhile was the only leader trained in Youth Protection. That has been changing, and we are in better shape to go camping. Setting up a camping trip was not easy for us. The desire was there, but the actual practice of camping was not. For me, it had been 20 years since I've camped. For many other leaders, they either hated camping outright or had little to no experience. What a challenge that is! Taking responsibility for a group of young boys, each at different maturity levels, even with their parents along (also at different maturity levels ) is what led me to pour over the books and training material and THEN plan a campout, the easiest possible. I rely on the information that National has made available to help guide me in making decisions, and so far, it hasn't failed me. Do I always get it? No, but it works for us in the limited time we've been addressing building up our Cub program. Our council runs fabulous family overnighters, and it was the perfect way to introduce our Cubs to camping along with the families. The cost was high, but it included everything--all we needed was a change of clothing and a sleeping bag or bedroll. Had I planned or helped plan a camping trip that was longer than one night, that required pitching a tent, that required cooking--we'd have lost most of our Cubs and their families to camping. We weren't ready for that. I think a huge part of planning must be thinking through all of these things, and I'm not saying you didn't, just that this is how I had to approach it. This year, we are repeating the family overnighter. Several new families are going. In addition, we have a tent camping trip planned for the pack, but so far only Webelos are attending. To be honest, I'm glad of that. I question if the others are ready; I question if some of the Webelos are ready (one is afraid of the dark, another of bugs, another hates the outdoors). We have some den leaders who want to plan yet another camping trip, but I have not agreed to it. That included the Webelos. Instead, I suggested a hike, an outdoor game day, a campfire at the CO. I have found many great places locally to spend time outdoors without the need for overnighters. The tent camping trip has some people uneasy, so I don't see the value in pushing two of them when one is offered. And then there is week-long day camp and resident camp. Resident camp: no takers this year. Day camp: numbers higher already than last year. Anyway, just my thoughts on Cub camping, which I support, but with great thought to who the boys who are going.

[Its Me]

 

If you are devoid of the capacity to plan a four meal, one night Den campout then you are surely lacking leadership qualities. If spending a night in the outdoors frightens the beejeebies out of you than you certainly dont have a scouting/adventurous spirit.

 

Accepting that Den camping is against the rules we tried to direct this debate towards why this is so. Also intertwined in this lengthy (IMHO a quality discussion) thread is whether the rule should be amended and under what pretense the rule should amended.

 

Leadership keeps coming up as a reoccurring buzzword. But I put forth that I am no super planner or great backwoodsman and yet I was able to plan and delivery a quality overnight experience. Why is it that so many of you feel that you could not possibly do the same?

 

Vote here:

The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

YES

 

 

[dan]

Vote here: The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

NO

[evmori]

Vote here: The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

 

YES

 

 

Dan,

Why the no vote?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[fotoscout]

Vote here: The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

 

Let me think for a minute......YES

[Laurie]

If you are devoid of the capacity to plan a four meal, one night Den campout then you are surely lacking leadership qualities. If spending a night in the outdoors frightens the beejeebies out of you than you certainly dont have a scouting/adventurous spirit.

 

That was not exactly a Scout-like comment regardless of who it was aimed at. If this was directed to me, I am not afraid, nor am I unable to plan out a camping trip for a heck of lot longer than a weekend. What I am is aware of the many different factors at play, including that of knowing the boys and their families and what they are ready for. Introducing Cubs to camp using an existing program has created a desire for more camping. I guess I'm puzzled as to why you'd have a problem with a leader acknowledging his/her limitations and acting accordingly to do what is best for the boys.

 

Vote here:

The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

 

No. Every campout, with the exception of Webelos campouts, is for the entire pack. If only boys from a particular den take part, and that does happen, then the den issue is addressed. However, I would love to hear a clearer explanation of why National has this policy. It seems many of us hear different explanations.

 

By the way, back to the original post: I do understand your frustration at planning a camping trip that people backed out of. That would be rough.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Laurie]

EagleKY posts:

I wonder what impact it may have on Cub Leader recruiting if National changes the focus and puts more emphasis on the outdoor program. Will it be harder to get moms to be den leaders? (Ladies, don't be offended by that). Will it be easier to get dads to be leaders? Something to think about...

 

None taken here Interesting thought. Interesting thing that took place in our pack--I think leaders may have been tired--lots to do, too few doing it for awhile. It was mostly male leadership, and they did nothing outside except for one campfire, one overnighter, and one picnic (but the camping was dropped a couple years back). Then the moms wanted to see more camping and more outdoor time. My first role as a leader was to get camping up and running again. Now we have a 50/50 split in leadership. Funny thing: the outdoor part of the program got more moms interested. The dads who weren't interested before, they got interested--and some registered--when they were asked to run the Pinewood derby and help with a workshop.

[EagleInKY]

That's interesting Laurie. That's totally opposite from what we've experienced. But that just shows how people are different.

 

It really highlights the underlying issue we have - differences in capabilities, interests and styles. The differences are numerous: city/suburban/rural, white collar/blue callar, northern/southern/midwestern, Bible Belt/Irish Catholic, etc. Beyond that, you can even have tremendous differences between two units in the same small town. It really goes to show what a challenge it is to make a national policy that is acceptable (anyone say "uniforms"). I'm glad I don't have that job.

[dan]

evmori

I say NO, because it would create another list of rules. Rule would have to be written for Tigers, Wolves, and Bears, the rules would have to be somewhat different for each age group for it to work.

As I read through these posts, I see that leaders are bending the rules rather than following the BSA program. Could you imagine how the rules would be bent if there where more rules?

These scouts are not ready for patrol camping, which is what some people would take as den camping.

 

OBEDIENT

A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

 

Why do you say YES?

[Proud Eagle]

Laurie, I thank you for your agreement. It is good to see that at least someone understood what I was trying to say. (I was almost worried I was using Greek, or something.)

 

I must now return the favor and agree with you. It is relatively simple to plan a camp-out. What is difficult is actually making it happen. This is particularly true if you have a large group of elementary school children who have minimal experience in camping, coupled with parents who have a similar lack of camping. I can just imagine a dozen Cubs, and their parents, all setting out with untested equipment for the first camp out of their life.

 

To carry out effective camping activities it requires more than filling out forms, scheduling facilities, and planning menus. It requires training other leaders, introducing kids and adults to basic skills and fundamental safety measures, and convincing everyone else to do their part to prepare.

 

Doing what it takes to plan and prepare for effective camping if there is essentially no camping experience in the group is a very difficult task. It can be done. It has been done. It will be done again. That doesn't make it easy. However, it is probably worth the effort. (Didn't Wheeler say the good comes through the hard or something like that? This may be a case of that in action.)

 

As to changing the policy on den camping, I can see no reason for it. Also, since the proponents of den camping have not succeeded in their efforts (which appear largely limited to this forum) to find the reason for the rule, it is difficult to say that the BSA's logic in creating the rule is unfounded.

 

Also, the opinions expressed by some shows that making it easier to ignore, break, or be ignorant of the rules is not a good idea. I think some would take a mile if given an inch. Maybe I am wrong, but if people will admit to taking as many liberties with the rules as some of you, it really worries me about what other less committed leaders would be willing to do if given the chance.

 

Finally, some have indicated a total lack of understanding of the sort of skills needed for various circumstances, and a lack of what activities are appropriate for various groups.

 

(Not to whip a dead horse, but GPS? You have to be kidding me. I took GPS through Philmont, and I assure you it fell squarely in the category of a luxury good rather than a necessity. Heck, you could almost do Philmont without a compass. Surely you can find your way on a clearly marked trail near to your base of operation in some place close to civilization if people can find their way in 137,000 acres of the back country. Show me a case where a Cub leader NEEDS GPS, and I will show you a case of shoddy planning and poor execution.)

[evmori]

dan,

I said yes because I feel den camping is just a smaller group than pack camping. Sure you would need rules for each rank. The BSA has never had a problem with writting new rules. Plus, this would give everyone the chance to experience camping trips. Why should a den in a pack suffer because the rest of the pack only wants to camp once a year when they would like to camp three times a year?

 

Currently dens can't camp by themselves. I would like to see that changed so they can.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10