I am angry

[evmori]

I think I know the reason we don't have an answer. No one know the answer!

 

Bear & Wolf den camping is not hard to pull off. The numbers are more managable then Pack camping.

 

It's Me,

 

The stars are gone so you don't need to worry.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

If you really wanted to know why a Cub Den are not suppose to camp, why are you spending your time asking here? Call or email your DE or SE or someone that may have or be able to get the BSA answer for you.

 

[EagleInKY]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. 2CD - You made some great points. I agree that the Den is the heart of Cub Scouting. I have had the concern that if the dens started doing camping on their own, they might neglect pack activities. I've seen this happen in some other situations. I think there would need to be some good guidelines on pack and den activities so that they don't conflict with one another. The upside is that a good den program should fuel a stronger pack program.

 

I've seen a lot of promising young scouts drop out of Cub Scouting due to the lack of a good outdoor program. I think we could keep some of them in the program longer if they had more outdoor experiences.

 

I also agree with the thought that we're not talking about Boy Scout camping with shorter boys. I think that we need to be careful that the types of adventures they do are scaled and limited in such a way to foster a better transition into Boy Scout camping and high adventure. Maybe, by providing more camping adventure, the focus of Boy Scout camping could be more along the line of teaching the boys how to take leadership/responsibility of the event, and not about how to role up a sleeping bag. Just a thought...

 

I wonder what impact it may have on Cub Leader recruiting if National changes the focus and puts more emphasis on the outdoor program. Will it be harder to get moms to be den leaders? (Ladies, don't be offended by that). Will it be easier to get dads to be leaders? Something to think about...

[fotoscout]

Its Me,

 

The positions of BW and PE reflect their view of scouting. We need to remember that we all have our own view, and that view is based on the kind of person we are, and, the tone of scouting in the area we live in. There is a lot of right in what theyve posted, but that doesnt necessary mean that if you follow their thoughts youll have a great program. What works for them might not work for you. Thats why there is a lot of flexibility built into the program. Safety, fun, some education, and the constant hum of values are what make a great CS program. They are not arguing against that, dont be too hard on them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Foto scout,

if you look at my last two posts all I did was share a few excerpts from scoutiong resources that state quite clearly the rules and why the BSA has set those rules, as well as the explaination from the BALOO syllabus as to what BALOO is.

 

From what portion of that did you manage to contrive "There is a lot of right in what theyve posted, but that doesnt necessary mean that if you follow their thoughts youll have a great program. What works for them might not work for you."

 

Those were not something I made it they were the BSA's program explainations not my own. If you don't follow the rules then why should a scout have to do so? If you don't follow the program but only wear the uniform how do you call it scouting?

[Proud Eagle]

WOW. Never thought that would infuriate anyone. Being lumped together with Bob White is also something new.

 

On the charge of being out of touch with the Cub Scout program, I pleed guilty. I haven't had regular involvement with Cubs for quite some time. The last Cub event I attended was my nephew's pack's pinewood derby.

 

I did not intend to suggest that Cubs shouldn't be doing outdoor activities. In fact, I think it would be great if Cubs did lots of stuff outdoors. However, there is a difference between outdoor activities and overnight camping. Most packs probably need more of both. That being said, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

 

Let me try to present my arguments in somewhat different terms.

 

BSA wants there to be a consistently good program for all Cub Scouts. This doesn't mean that just because one den gets to go to the flight simulator that all of them should, rather it means they should all be doing some sort of outings on a regular basis. If you then extend this concept to the somewhat more difficult to organize camping events, it seems clear that pack level organization is the way to go.

 

It was mentioned that you think it unfair that you can't just take your den camping and focus on them. I think it would be great if you could, in and of itself. However, camping experience and skills are not universal traits of den leaders. Your den members may benefit greatly from you planning camping for just them, but what about the other dens? It is quite likely that some of the other den leaders would need some help to plan a good camping trip. Perhaps it would be the greater good for you to help plan a pack camping trip (and in the process help teach the other leaders some of the basics so they can contribute more next time) so that all the Cubs can do some camping.

 

The second reason for pack instead of den camping is quality control. The tour permit may only require one committee member to sign, but that is more oversight than there would be if den leaders were free to take their dens camping whenever they want. The committee member should only be signing that permit if they think that the event has been properly planned and will be properly lead. Think about it this way: picture the least skilled den leader in your pack trying to plan a camping trip. Would you really feel comfortable about that happening without someone else in the pack backing them up?

 

It may be that the prohibition on den camping doesn't really serve any useful purpose. It could be that it will be done away with. I am not suggesting I know for certain the inner thoughts of the BSA. I am also not suggesting current policy is the best possible policy. I am trying to suggest one possible set of reasons that BSA may think pack camping is a better idea than den camping for wolf and bear dens.

[Eamonn]

Its Me

Hey there hold up.

Bob White listed the BSA policy. Please note this was /is policy.

If you were a member of the district that I serve and had asked me the rules about Cub Scout camping. I would have dug out my copy of the Guide To Safe Scouting and gave you the very same answer.

If it came to my attention that you had still proceed with the camp, my next port of call would be a visit to your unit commissioner, who I would hope would bring the matter to the pack committee and the charter rep.

If a permit had been issued by the council I would follow up on that.

I don't care if you like the policy or not. It is a policy and until such a time as it is changed you ought to follow it. In fact if you choose to not follow it after having it pointed out to you I would recommend to the organization that charters the pack that you are in that they remove you as soon as possible as your actions are leaving them open to the liability for any harm that might befall these young Lads.

Eamonn

 

[fotoscout]

Hi Bob,

 

Ill play even though I know whats coming!

 

Your posts are of course accurate and very much on the money with respect to Den Camping. They are not wrong, they are right! I think well all agree that there is a lot of right in the G2SS, and other BSA publications. But, yes Ill use the but word, following all the policies all time may work for you and not for others. You may have the depth and breath in your support structure to run a good program without the camping trip while others might not. Others may need the camping trip to have a successful outdoors adventure.

 

If you don't follow the rules then why should a scout have to do so? If you don't follow the program but only wear the uniform how do you call it scouting?

 

Good questions, Ill answer them here, but maybe it should move to another thread.

 

Yes, sometimes I drive 5 miles over the speed limit. Yes, sometimes when I park my car at the curb, the front of my car extends 6 inches beyond the no parking sign. Both are in violation of the traffic laws, but Im still a good driver, I have no tickets or accidents, and I get a good driver discount from my insurance company. I even take the NHSC Safe Driver Course every three years. Am I a hazard to the passengers in my car, should I be banned from driving, can I call what I do Driving?

 

The answer is the same. Do I take some small liberties with the program? Do you take some small liberties with the program? How many of you out there run raffles? How many of you out there run 50/50s. How many of you out there get a tour permit for absolutely every outing that might need one, and how many of you out there go back and accurately correct the tour permit after the outing is over? Again the answer is the same, its not about gross violations of policy, its about small liberties that make the program work for me and you, and each of us. Its about exercising judgment in a mature fashion and if thats not Scouting then I plead guilty.

 

Remember that in this case we are really talking about trying to follow the rules, but ultimately manipulating the tour permit so that this trip could go forward. I might also add that in some places the tour permit would be approved without any manipulation. Marty Doyles posting was very telling. I heard the same rhetoric from the National Director of Cub Scouting over two years ago. Yet we still dont have any changes in the program. Todays Cub Scout Leaders are trying to make the program work for todays kids. Yesterday rules are making it very difficult. Many of you at this point are rehashing the old argument about Den Leaders wanting to do too much, pushing the kids, and ruining the BS program because the CS have done too much BS activity. To you folks I say, wake up, todays kids are different than yesterdays kids, todays parents are different than yesterdays parents, and todays program has to compete at a higher level than yesterdays program. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

 

My very personal outlook on this is that I believe that many of the people who voice opposition to Den Campouts are out of touch with todays CSs. I say that with no disrespect intended. The people who understand this issue are todays Den Leaders and Cubmasters and not yesterdays Cubmasters who are still doing the job after 20 years. Most of the district and council people I see are many years removed from Cub Scouts. There interest is with the BS program, and are being dragged back to the CS program only out of necessity! Unfortunately, its not these people that we need to tweak the CS program; its their Children or Grandchildren. The 2004 Cub Scout environment is much different than the 1970s Cub Scout Environment.

 

One closing thought, take a look at the age of your Cub Scout parents. If youre like me, most of the parents are older parents, over 35 and many over 40, remember I have a Bear Den (8-9 year olds). Why is that?

 

 

Bring it on!!!!

 

[fotoscout]

Few topic generate the passion that this one does. Wouldn't it be nice to sit in the room when National takes up this debate?

 

Foto

[Bob White]

If you regularly drive over the speed limit and have no tickets, you are not a good driver. You are a criminal who has not been caught yet.

 

As a cubmaster, I encouraged and supported the dens to have an outdoor activity every month. We did a Family Camp twice a year, nearly every cub attended day camp and resident camp, and our Webelos dens camped 4-times a year. The Cubs had loads of outdoor activities and we NEVER had to violate the policies of the Guide to Safe Scouting in order to do it. To say you need to is lame. If you cannot play a game by the rules you should not be playing the game.

 

You speed regularly? What gives you the right to endanger other drivers? You want to take dens camping even when the rules say do not? What gives you the right?

 

There are posters on this thread who are not even involved in the cub scout program telling den leaders "don't listen to the rules listen to me." What absolute arrogance. Telling others to violate the safety and program policies of the BSA while they sit safely isolated unable to be punished no matter what happens or who gets hurt. How cowardly.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Hunt]

It is perfectly legitimate to ask why BSA has a policy against Cubs camping as a den. Bob White essentially gave two answers for why this is:(1) camping is intended to be a pack event at this age and (2) a full understanding of the reasons for the policy can only be gleaned by undergoing full training. But it seems clear to me that there must be a perceived safety issue, since BSA makes a point of saying that insurance will not cover den campouts. That alone is reason enough not to do den camping, but it's not really a rationale. (Note: it would also be perfectly OK to say, "I don't know the reason for the rule, but I trust the rulemakers in BSA to have good reasons for their rules.")

[Marty_Doyle]

I think one of the issues is "what makes it a Pack camp out?" Some Cub Scout reality.

 

I am a Cubmaster, have taken all appropriate training, including BALOO and WLOT. If Its Me (the Wolf den leader in my Pack) came to me and asked (it's usually been more like told me) the Wolf den is going camping, what I would do (even though I know Its Me has completed BALOO) is bring in one of the Webelos leaders, who are also BALOO and WLOT trained, and the three of us would go over the planning aspects of the campout.

I would then check my calendar and have the Webelos leader check his calendar to see if either of us could attend attend the campout. But thatnis because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy.

 

I would announce it to all the den leaders and Pack as a Pack family camping event at the next leader meeting and Pack Night. (I don't know if Its Me's CM did this).

 

Whichever BALOO trained leader was available to attend the camput would sign the tour permit and then attend the campout.

 

If for some reason, no leader but Its Me could attend, and only the Wolf den camps out, it is still a Pack campout, and I manipulated nothing.

50% or less attendance at some Pack events is not an uncommon occurrence in the Cub Scouting world.

 

However, in our Pack, the Wolf, Bear and Tiger dens have no parent who is BALOO trained (yet), so either the Webelos leaders or myself help in the planning, complete the LTP, and attend.(I think BALOO and YP trained adult attendance at the camping event is a Council added regulation).

Since we attend the campout with our sons, there is nominally more than one den represented. This is not done to "subvert" the rules, but because our sons just assume if one of us leaders is going camping with Scouts, then they are going too.

 

Eamonn could come visit me (I would welcome that anyway) and we could go visit the UC together (he's one of my MCs). There is no attempt to deceive here.

 

If TwoCubDad came to me wanting to camp out with his son's Bear den, given the level of trained leadership in the Den, I would do the same thing.

Convert it into a Pack event, and go ahead with the campout. It happens all the time. The Webelos DL wanted to take his den to Yankee Stadium, the Wolf DL wanted to take her den to West Point. They have no clue about LTPs. So, we announced two new Pack events, taught them about tour permits, filed them with Council and away they went (in both cases with Scouts from other dens, but it doesn't always happen that way).

[fotoscout]

Hi Bob,

 

As a cubmaster, I encouraged and supported the dens to have an outdoor activity every month. We did a Family Camp twice a year, nearly every cub attended day camp and resident camp, and our Webelos dens camped 4-times a year.

 

Please tell us what years this activity occurred in, and does this pack still have the same level of activity and how well is it attended?

 

 

There are posters on this thread who are not even involved in the cub scout program telling den leaders "don't listen to the rules listen to me." What absolute arrogance. Telling others to violate the safety and program policies of the BSA while they sit safely isolated unable to be punished no matter what happens or who gets hurt. How cowardly.

 

Oh please. I suspect that no one on the forum gleaned that from these postings, mine or anyone elses. And I suspect that we all do a good job, in the long haul, of stressing our concern for the safety of the boys in our care. Like it or not, the arguments put forward here will help shape the future of Cub Scouting. If we were all locked in step like lemmings, no change would ever happen. To hide behind an outdated rule, for fear of being seen as being in opposition to that rule is truly the cowardly option.

 

Bob, Cub Scouting is different today!

 

By the way, I said sometimes, not regularly!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[Twocubdad]

Marty, that was essentially what I was asking a few days back when I asked if this is really just a matter of semantics. If ItsMe has all the bases cover and asks his CM and CC to approve his den campout as an official pack event, is he legal?

 

We, or at least many of us, are not just leaders of Cub Scouts but also leaders of other Cub Scout leaders. I don't like to get into the game of manipulating the rules to do what we wanted to do in the first place. That's not the example I want to set. HOWEVER, there is a difference between that had having a sufficient understanding of the rules to intelligently apply them. Thus far, no one has disagreed with the idea that a pack campout needn't be cancelled if only the members of one den choose to attend. Why not? That's not covered in the rules. That's the 56-in-55 kind of violation I believe foto is talking about.

 

If one of my den leaders wants to take his den camping, I would tell him den campouts are against BSA policy, but let's see what we can do to make the outing happen and stay within the policy.

[Bob White]

I was a cub leader for 5 years ending in 2000; I have been a Cub Leader Trainer for the last 15 years. I was a Cub Roundtable staff member for three years in the late 1990s. I know the program enough to grow a pack of less than 30 to over 100 in about two years, increasing it from three to 14 Dens of two-deep trained and uniformed leaders in each den and a committee of 14 trained and uniformed parents, where 100% of the Webelos crossed over into Boy Scouts (nearly 16 each year). I have already explained our outdoor program. We netted $12,000 to $15,000 dollars a year in Popcorn Sales. We met year-round and had some of the best Pack meetings you could ever imagine. In addition we went from one of the smallest to the largest of 14 packs in a rural town of 24,000.

 

And we did it by following the program, and all of its rules.

 

So, if you are trying to build a premise that I am out of touch with the program, I am afraid you are groundless

 

Yes, the program changes, but it is not changed by volunteers breaking rules and making the program up as you go along. It takes more than anarchy to develop and improve a program of this size.

 

You want a quality, exciting, program? You have one! It is in the resources and training of the BSA.