I am angry

[fotoscout]

Bob,

 

We've been here before. It would be really nice if someone could give us the real reason behind this policy of no Den Camping for CS.

 

As for Baloo, I'll repeat something I've said before; Baloo doesn't give you health and safety knowledge necessary to go into the woods with 5 boys or 50 boys. In fact I have to wonder if it provides a false sense of confidence to those people who should really not be leading a camping trip.

 

[Eamonn]

At times why one group of Scouts want to do something while another group will run a mile from it is one of life's mysteries. In Boy Scouts even when the PLC plans the event it can at times not meet expectations.

Still it does look as if you were given the wrong information and nothing will make it right. When we get to BSA policy there are no ifs Ands or buts.

There is a lot of Den Leaders taking Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation training. Which is a shame. The training is not meant for them. This training is for an adult who will look after the details of the camp while the Den Leaders tend to the needs of the boys and the parents. In my opinion this is why it is not permitted to have Den Camping.

Your profile doesn't tell me what your position is in the pack. If you are the Den Leader and are busy cooking and organizing the activities who is looking after the den and the families?

Eamonn

[fotoscout]

I cant speak for Its Me, but when we go its a joint effort, (sorry folks, no pun intended). Part of Baloo is the organization of the program and assignment of tasks to others adults. I dont think that the baloo person has to spend his time driving the schedule. Everyone gets assignments and they do their jobs.

 

In my opinion, the whole baloo thing is about planning for a program that follows the BSA model. BSA doesnt want me or you or anyone else simply going out in the woods with a bunch of kids and no plan to do something constructive with them. A constructive program can be put together with a den or a pack or even district. Ultimatley, my camping trip, your camping trip, and even BW's camping trip should pretty much look the same. Our activities will differ, but the program should be pretty close. I think that this is what baloo is all about.

 

Eamonn, I dont quite know what you mean about details of the camp. The baloo that I did was primarily focused on the planning. They did very little in terms of camp details.

 

[Eamonn]

Looking at it again I see that I wasn't very clear.

The training is suited for a pack committee member who will take care of the planning ensure fire safety, first aid and have a working knowledge of stoves and lanterns. Oversee meal preparations and sanitation. That person will also plan the pack camp fire.

The training is not to make anyone a "Super Scout" It is not the rugged outdoor high adventure that older Scouts do. More "Soft Camping" with an emphasis on family fun activities. This Pack Activity Leader will be the person who coordinates the event while the Den Leaders lead the dens.He or she might well want to enlist the help of other adults however I would hope that the Den Leaders would be busy with the Den not busy cooking or trying to plan the camp fire.

Eamonn

[evmori]

Still no one has answered the question? Why can't a den go weekend camping? It can't have anything to do with safety since the BSA allows Bears AND Wolves to shoot BB guns & bows & arrows at day camp?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[fotoscout]

Does anyone know where we get an answer to this question, and who to address it to?

[Bob White]

To understand why dens do not camp and the purpose of BALOO training two things need to happen 1) you need to have an understanding of the methods of scouting, and two you need trainers who follow the various training syllibi and share the information that is supposed to be included in the courses.

 

It is not feasible to explain the value of the entire 8 hour BALOO course in a forum post. Nor is it possible, in the length of a post, to teach or persuade anyone who either doesn't know or doesn't accept the methods of scouting to do so.

 

But lets start here. From the BALOO syllabus.

"The target particiapnat is a new Cub Scout leader who has minimal camping experience but wants to plan and carry out an entry-level outdoor experience for the pack. Successful completeion of this training will result in increased confidence and a willingness to plan a pack campout.

 

The goal of the pack camping acrtivity is to provide a successful pack camp outing that is:

>Fun

>Based on the purposes of the Cub Scouting.

>Successful in whetting the appetite of the Cub Scout, his parents, and the leaders to want more of the outdoors."

 

ASLO from the syllabus:

BSA Progressive Camping Program

"We introduce Cub Scouts to the outdoors through dan and pack activities and Wolf and Bear requirements. The Boys learn proper methods and safety procedures for hikes, cookouts, and conservation projects. they enjoy family camping, day camping, residdent camping and now, with a parent or other adult, Pack overnighters.

 

Webelos take the second step in outdoor adventure by taking part in more advanced overnight campouts with a parent or responsible adult........

 

Boy Scouts develop and polish their skills of long term camping. they use the basics learned as cub scouts and Webelos to add more complex skills, learn self reliance and develop a deper sense of responsibility.......

 

Each step in the ever-increasing challenge of the outdoor program is a foundation to the next heigher step. We should guard against using outdoor experiences that will take away from a boy's later experience in scouting. We want to whet his appetite for Boy Scouting and beyond- not give him the whole meal too early, before he is ready."

 

 

 

There is more, but you need to be reading the resources of Cub Scouting to learn it, not this or any other forum.

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

Leave it to Bob to quote scripture and proclaim the need to read same but not offer an explanation.

 

Eight boys sitting around a campfire and making S'mores won't ruin the Boy Scout experience for those eight boys anymore than if they go on a nature hike.

 

The real reason is probably buried in the secret archives of BSA and likely involves injured Cub Scouts or pagan sacrifices of goats.

[evmori]

Bob,

Great post with a lot of good information. The only thing your post didn't do was answer the question - Why can't dens go weekend camping?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Its Me]

Well we went and I can say we had a great time. I had a Ranger lead hike in the morning followed by free time at the playground. After lunch one of the moms lead the camp in group games. Latter one of the dads lead us on a hike through his favorite trail in the park. I cooked some meals but by all means, no more than my share. I monitored the fire, settled arguments and keep the boys in reasonable order. Once there I did no more work than if another BALOO had planned and organized the event. I liked it for the reason that our den boys had to play and interact with one another. It is my hope that by having these den campouts the boys are forming genuine long-term bonds. If this had been a pack setting with 75 kids it would have been harder to get them to just play with each other. Let alone monitor and know their whereabouts at all times.

 

 

By the way, I am no longer angry. We had four boys spend the entire two nights/three days. One boy spend the second night and another boy + family spend the days with us but nights at their home. The three boys that couldn't make it all had good reasons for not coming.

 

 

By the way the boys said the pagan goat ritual was their favorite part.

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[Big_Dog]

FOG-

I thought it was pagan sacrifices OF goat, that way you have cabrito for supper. It kinda took the place of the "running of the chickens" so to speak. Too many people objected to the boys killing the poor little chickens, but who really cares about a goat?

NJ- just kidding, in a canine kind of way...

 

big dog

[Marty_Doyle]

In both the BALOO cand WLOT courses I attended, it was stressed that the restrictions on who could camp how and when was based on two components:

* the average mental, physicial, and emotional maturity of the boys in that rank, roughly equivalent to grade, and

* the desired incremental progression into Boy Scouting - the concern was if Bear Cub Scouts go camping for three nights in conjunction with white water rafting and rappelling, what "Sizzle" is left to entice them into Boy Scouts?

 

We are talking about first (6 years old), second (7 years old) and third graders(8 years old) here, guys.

Talk about herding cats! Have any of you been a den leader with a bunch of second graders for 60 minutes lately? Then you might realize the problems with bringing them camping, which involves in some form fire and sharp objects - outdoor cooking, fire building, axes, bow saws, knives, etc. Almost all of the things i just mentioned are not allowed for Cub Scouts below Webelos rank.

 

And this is different than BB guns and archery, which are only allowed at camp, under strict supervision, with lots of adults around.

[fotoscout]

Bob,

 

Your post supports most of the things that weve said here. But Eds right, we still dont have an answer. I think FOG is on the right track with the pagan sacrifices. However, Ill shoot for a different angle.

 

My guess is that its more of a political issue than a skills or safety issue. If I, the Den 3 Leader, want to go camping with my boys, and the parents agree with it, we could effectively go camping as a den 5- 8 times during the year. Thats terrific for my boys, but what about the rest of the pack? You see, none of the other leaders are campers. They wouldnt go camping unless it was at the Marriott. The rest of the parents however, want and expect an outdoors program from their Den Leaders. Big trouble brewing already! Whats the committee to do? The parents are stammering for more camping, the den leaders wont do it; the parents with the big mouths wont become leaders, and the Den 3 parents because they spend time together, have become a force to reckon with when it comes to all pack activities. Not conducive to a happy pack

 

Strictly hypothetical, but I suspect that there is at least a small piece of the answer buried somewhere in the above paragraph.

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

One thought I had while reading this thread was, if the boys get significant experience camping in Cub Scouts, what's to offer them in Boy Scouts? We already see some of this in our Troop on the Klondike Derby. Most of the older scouts have no interest. They have been doing Klondikes since they were First Year Webelos.

 

There seems to be some value in drawing out the experiences in scouting. I like this aspect of scouting. In others areas of life everyone seems to want to push younger kids into doing more and at an earlier age. At some point do we want to be the first Den Leader to take a Wolf Den to Philmont?

 

I'm not against Cub Camping. But the way the program currently has it set up seems to be right to me. Outdoor activities as Cubs, Family camping as Webelos and letting the boys camp on their own(with adult oversight) as they become Boy Scouts. Sure some kids could handle things at faster pace, and parents are free to take their own kids camping, backpacking or up Mt. Everest if they think the program slows them down. The BSA camping program is aimed at meeting the needs of many different individuals and skill levels.

 

SA

 

[Twocubdad]

Marty & SA:

 

Your reasoning makes perfect sense, IF the resulting policy were that Wolves and Bears are not permitted to camp. Family camping is very much a sanctioned activity for Wolves and Bears and packs are encouraged to camp.

 

But that's not the question being asked. What we're asking is for the reasoning behind allowing a Pack to camp with trained leaders and parental supervision but disallowing dens to camp under the same circumstances. There are no requirements for a pack camp that couldn't be met by a den, save the need to have boys from mutiple dens present to make it a legal pack outing. And common sense tells you that requirement can be waived in the case of a small pack with only one den or a situation where only boys from one den show up.

 

If my younger son's Bear den choose to go on a den camp out (which we would not do since it would violate G2SS policy) and all the dads attended, we would have with us two trained den leaders, the Cubmaster, the Pack Committee chairman and two dads with BALOO training. What level of training and/or supervision would we be mission that we would have at an official Pack campout?

 

I'm in violent agreement with you over the appropriate implementation of various skill levels -- ages and stages and all that. My fellow Webelos den leader the past year-and-a-half has been all about "preparing the Webelos for the Scout troop," emphasizing Boy Scout-level camping skills. He and I have had that conversation many times and I take your position of "so what are they going to do for First Class"? But that relates more to the appropriateness of the activities taking place while camping, not whether or not a given group of Cubs may camp.

 

So the question remains, what is the rationale behind permitting Packs to camp but not dens?